越洋訪談實錄:一個普通美國人眼中的陳光誠事件
丹奇 (2012年5月22日)
前言:近一段時間以來,網路和現實中,海外華人和美國人都在對中國盲人陳光誠事件進行討論,很多,很廣泛,很深刻。我出差在國內,卻是沒有聽到任何百姓對此事有何議論。放眼望去,似乎人人都在忙於自己的生意,生計而無暇他顧。陳光誠一事似乎沒有在國內社會泛起一點漣漪。國內的人們一旦從網路社區回到現實,該幹嘛還得幹嘛,生存要緊。再看美國,似乎網路社會也在對此議論紛紛,現實社會,政府的行動和媒體的報道也在美國社會造成兩種不同的態度。一部分人為陳光誠最終來美表達了善良的祝福,另一部分則認為美國政府是多管閑事。對此,還有人懷疑那些反對陳光誠來美的人不是真正的美國人。
為了了解真正的美國人的真實想法,咱雖身在國內,還是設法邀請到一位美國生意夥伴沃倫接受咱的網路訪談。他以一個老美的眼光,從開始的「似乎沒想那麼多」,到後面「越想越多」,似乎也能給我們提供多一個看問題的角度。他的意見也只是一孔之見,但卻是咱親自獲取的第一手資料,有無代表性,也是仁者見仁智者見智的事了。下面,就請開始收聽咱們的訪談吧:
Me:
Hi Guy, Let』s not talk about business today, I have an interesting issue to
discuss with you. did you hear about the story of a Chinese blind man who came
to USA?what is your opinion?
我:嗨,夥計,咱今天不談生意,我有一件有趣的事情想跟你討論。 你知道中國盲人來到美國的事情嗎?你有什麼看法?
Warren: Blind Man? he in NY
沃倫: 盲人嗎?他在紐約。
me: yes, he went to NYU,what do you think about the the entire story? I like to hear some
different voice, can
you write about it?
我; 對,他去紐約大學了。你對整個事件有何想法? 我想聽一些不同的聲音,你想寫點什麼嗎?
Warren: no real opinion
on it
,samo samo, govt try to silence guy, guy
gets away
沃倫: 沒啥想法呢,老調重彈而已。政府要讓這個人閉嘴,這個人跑掉了
me: oversease chinese
big fight on it
我:海外華人為此而爭鬥厲害呢。
Warren: make govt look
bad,usa solves problem says he can study here and get a
"professor" job at some school, china
look bad,,,but also solves problem and gets it off the daily news, that's about it, personally
- i think the guy just looking for fame, want
to be martyr
沃倫:讓中國政府很難堪。美國把問題解決了。說他可以在這裡學習,並在某校獲得教授的工作。中國很難看。但是也解決了問題。使這事不再每天報道了。就這麼多。從我個人而言:我認為這傢伙只是為了出名,想當殉道者。
me: do you think he
can be a professor?
我;你認為他可以當教授?
Warren: he'll teach
human rights stuff, rights of people
沃倫:他會教人權, 人的權利之類
me: donyou think Obama
gonna look bad?
我: 你認為奧巴馬會很難堪嗎?
Warren: why obama look
bad ?
沃倫:為啥奧巴馬難看?
me: some American
says that he can't even save his own
poeple job but nosy about other country
我:有美國人說他不能管好自己國家人民的失業問題,卻去多管別國的閑事。
Warren: everybody happy
here,,, : it's like "saving the whales"...we did a "good
deed"
沃倫: 這裡人人都為此高興啊。就好像是「救了鯨魚」,我們做了一件好事。
me: go to yahoo, many people complaining
我: 去雅虎看看,好多人在抱怨呢。
Warren: about what?
沃倫: 抱怨啥?
me: complain about US taxpayers pays his family to survive, he is not contributing to USA
我:抱怨說美國納稅人為他和家人買單,而他沒有對美國社會有任何貢獻。
Warren: doubt
it,,,probably locals and the
university,
they are the ones who pay,private funding
but i personally think the guy just
looking to be famous,,,,trouble maker type....i think he'll cause problem here
and embarrass USA at some point
沃倫:不會吧。也許是當地人或大學支付的。他們才是付錢的人。私人基金。但是我個人認為這個人只是想出名。麻煩製造者。我認為他會給我們這裡製造麻煩,一定的時候可能讓美國難堪。
me: I am trying to find out, the real thinking
我: 我想了解你的真實的想法。
Warren: that my thinking, most people are happy he get out, think it cause problem for china, make china look weak,but
actually - why keep a problem that the whole world keeps focus on? get rid of
the problem,,,and usa took him in, so,
problem solved,
no he'll be our problem, now he'll be our problem.
沃倫: 那是我的想法。大多數人為他能出來感到高興。認為這事是給中國製造問題。讓中國看上去很軟弱。但是,事實上----為何要留著一個舉世矚目的問題呢?解決掉這個問題。。。然後,美國把他要來了。所以,問題解決了。不,他將成為我們的問題了。現在,他是我們的問題了。
me: Do you think
that Rpublicans are using him as bullet to
shoot Obama?
我:你認為是共和黨要用他當子彈打擊奧巴馬?
Warren: people like him
i think like to cause issue...soon he'll be yakking it up the "usa needs
to do this, and that",,,and soon he'll just be a pain in the ass, the dems look good on this - not the R's
it's the Dems that got him out,,,the
R's just yaking
沃倫:像他這樣的人喜歡製造事端。很快,他就會吵吵 「美國需要做這個,那個」。。。很快,他將成為一個討厭鬼。民主黨在這件事上做的好看。而不是共和黨。是民主黨幫了他。共和黨只是瞎嚷嚷。
me: but it's gonna back
fire on dem,right?
我: 但是,民主黨將會因此後患無窮,對嗎?
Warren: gonna back fire
on Dems and R's
沃倫:民主黨和共和黨都將有後患。
me: some people say he just fighting for his own rights by disobeying the national policy that favor more people's
rights,what
do you think?
我: 有人說他只是為了個人的權利而鬥爭,而不遵守惠及大多數人的國策,你怎麼看?
Warren: the problem is
that it will encourage every knucklehead there to try to do the same thing -
and they'll all want to come to USa cuz china ain't all that....otherwise
people not always want to come here, and the big sharks wouldn't try to get all
their money out of there and get it to USA or europe, even the big sharks not
plan to stay there, look at that guy and his wife - moving almost $ 1billion, never see american trying to get some where else, no american snake heads to get to china,or mexico,or canada
沃倫: 問題是,這會鼓勵其他頭腦發熱的人效仿。。他們都會想來美國,因為中國並不是他們想呆的地方。不然的話,人們就不會總是想來美國,那些大人物也不會把所有的錢挪出那兒,弄到美國或歐洲去。甚至大人物都不想呆在那裡。看看你們那個傢伙和他的老婆—轉移了將近10億美元。從來沒有看見美國人試圖移民到其他國家去,沒有美國蛇頭想去中國,墨西哥或者加拿大。
me: some guy in China
already copying and trying to do the same by attacking an USA guy in Beijing to
get international attention, No, lots
of people now snaking into China from russia or North Korea, Africa and many other countries now
我: 中國已經有人在效仿,並試圖攻擊一個美國人以引起國際關注。不過,現在還是有不少俄羅斯人,北朝鮮人,非洲國家或其他國家的人偷渡到中國去呢。
Warren: they're not
americans, lol, russia,,,who can blame them, it's a POS, corrupt too,and cold
as hell.
but soon the Chen and his family won't be news
- unless he try stir the pot. so he'll
probably align himself with those types, and be the "leader" and yak
it up too much.like those people who sit in front of consulate and pray all
day.
so, they just need keep him
busy teaching some class in NY and stay out of the way.i don't think media here that interested in him. the story over,,,he is here now..so, now what ?
沃倫:他們不是美國人啊。(笑), 俄羅斯? 沒人責怪他們。那是個POS, 也很腐敗,天氣冷的要死。但是,不久,陳和他的家人就不是新聞了---除非他又搞出點事來。所以,他可能把自己跟那些什麼組織搞到一起。成為什麼「領袖」, 吵吵起來。像那些整天坐在領事館,前面禱告的人那樣。所以,美國需要讓他在紐約大學忙著教課,淡出視野。我不認為這裡的媒體對他那麼感興趣。故事已經結束了。他已經在這裡了。然後,然後怎麼樣?
Me:
But some Chinese people overseas
cheering him very
much by calling him human rights
hero, what do you think?
我: 但是,有些海外華人為他歡呼,稱呼他是人權英雄,你怎麼看?
Warren: it's funny -
most of those right wing R's don't want some mexican here that just wants to mow your lawn
for a good price, but instead they want to support with 1000 times as much
money some freakin' guy who can't speak english and really doesn't have an
education
that the way i see it
沃倫: 很搞笑。大多數共和黨右派不想讓那些只是想以低廉的價錢為你家院子除草的墨西哥人來美國,但是,反過來,他們卻要花上一千倍的價錢支持把一個既不能說英語,又沒有受過什麼教育的人來美國。這就是我的看法。
me: that's why people doubting this is the some kind of political fight
between d and r
我: 所以有人認為這是民主黨和共和黨之間的鬥爭,你認為呢?
Warren: i don't think
the USA wanted him,,,it was just big news at the time, and china not want him either.
hopefully, i think USA just hope he stays low key
沃倫:我不認為美國真的要他來。只是因為當時是個大新聞。中國也不要他。我認為,美國希望他保持低調。
me: what do you think
about his future, do you think he can survive well?
我: 你認為他的前途如何?
Warren: his future? he
not have future here,for a while he's ok,,,but soon the "star power"
wears off and Americans find another "pet" project,,,then forget
about him
沃倫:他的前途? 他在這裡沒有前途。他可能有一陣子沒啥問題。但是,很快,「明星效應」會消失,美國又會找到另一個「寵物」工程, 然後把忘到後腦勺。
me: some people say he can
survive on people's donation
我:有人說,他可以靠捐贈謀生
Warren: after a while
people won't want to donate....it always happen that way
沃倫:過一陣子,就沒人捐款了。歷來如此。
me: do you believe
people will donate for his whole family for his life?
我:你認為有人會為他全家負責捐款一輩子嗎?
Warren: no,,,no way
沃倫:不可能,絕無可能。
me: then, what will be
his future?
我: 那麼,他的前景如何?
Warren: he has to bring
something to the table,
his future? probably get his wife a
job in restuarant, maybe she get 2 jobs,
沃倫: 他必須有所貢獻。他的前途? 也許給他老婆在餐館找一份工作,也許她需要打雙份工。
me: that means, he has
to keep fighting
with China on USA soil like other dissidents?
我: 這麼說,他不得不像其他異議人士一樣,繼續在美國土壤上與中國作對?
Warren: his story isn't
fight against china for lots of people,,it was just his fight
沃倫:他的故事不是為了許多人與中國作對,只是為了他自己的權利而戰的。
me: for himself?
我: 為他自己?
Warren: it's not a
"movement",
it's just one guy and his complaints
against the govt
he not fighting for a bunch of
people,
沃倫: 這不是一個「運動」。只不過是某一個人對政府的抱怨。他不是為一群人而鬥爭。
me: do you think he is
human rights fighter and hero?
我: 你認為他是人權鬥士和英雄嗎?
Warren: the thing he was
doing before about complain about "foreced abortion" or
whatever,,,,that not just his fight,,,that other issue, not his, that not
just one person
the reason he here is his own
personal complaint
沃倫:他以前做的投訴「強行流產」之類, 那不是一個人的鬥爭,那是另一碼事,不是他一個人的。他來這裡的理由是他個人的抱怨。
me: why you think so?
我: 你為何這麼認為呢?
Warren: why think so ?
cuz that's all that reported,,,about how he detained in house, yada yada
yada,,,
沃倫:為啥這麼認為?因為這是媒體報道的啊。關於他如何被監視居住在房子里。等等等等。
Me:
it is said, China spent 30 million on all sorts of suvailance equipment to
watch him and detain him, what do you think?
我: 據說,中國花了3千萬人民幣在安裝監視系統上來監視他監禁他,你怎麼看?
Warren:
costr $30million? that's ridiculous,get him and his family some plane tickets and the school put
him up somoewhere,
less than $10,000..whoever say
$30mil is just hyping nothing. it's like
fishing,,,evetrybody make the fish bigger,
maybe china spend $30mil over time,,,,usa not gonna do that...private funders
got him a plane ticket, and the school put him up in some shitty apartment, in 2 weeks nobody talk about him any more until he makes
noise,
沃倫:花了3千萬? 太可笑了。 給他和他的家人每人一張機票,學校安置他,也不超過一萬美元。誰要是說3千萬,那只是誇大宣傳。就好像釣魚,每個人都把魚越傳越大。
也許中國持續花了3千萬。美國不會這麼做。私人基金給他一張機票,學校安排他們住在一間簡陋的公寓里,兩周后,就沒人談論他的事情了。直到他又整出響動。
me: what do you
think he can do here?
我:你認為他在這裡能有所作為嗎?
Warren: the only thing
he can accomplish here is to stir up a bunch of people here,,,but those
people not need him to stir up ,,they get stirred up about everything anyway,
沃倫: 他在這裡所能做的就是鼓動起一批人,但是,那些人不需要他來鼓動。他們反正會為任何事情而鼓噪。
me: what do you think
about China let him go?good choice or bad
我: 你認為中國放他走是做的對還是不對?
Warren: in one way it
makes them look weak,
in another they solve a problem and
get rid of the guy,,let him get lost
in the noise of america,
沃倫:一方面(中國放他走)讓他們看上去很軟弱。另一方面,他們解決了一個問題,把他搞走了。讓他消失在美國的噪音里。
me: what is the
difference between the declining of an official's asylum petition who has more
stuff that can interest USA, but take in a blind man who has almost no valuable
information for USA?
How you think of this?
我: 美國對於一個可以為他們帶來重要情報的高官的庇護申請拒絕了,卻接受了一個對美國沒有任何價值的盲人,這裡的區別是什麼,你有什麼看法?
Warren: the value
of the Chen is that his story is more widely reported and he just a
obody,,,,not a big issue for china, but
the official could cause real disruptions in the relations of the 2 ountries. plus - we probably already had or got the info the official
was looking to bargain with. so, that's
just a loser,,,he probably not have much of real value to the usa, just some dirt on some people。
沃倫:陳的價值在於他的故事廣為流傳,他只是一個無名小卒。對中國無足輕重。但是那個高官就會真正地引起兩國之間的關係破裂。再說,我們也許已經掌握了那些那個高官用來討價還價的情報。因此,准許高官的申請不是上策。他也許根本對美國沒有什麼價值,他手裡只有某人的一些把柄而已。
me: many people dream to
come to USA,
and has not real channel, can copy
this,
petition for asylum. Do you think
America will take them all in?
我: 許多人夢想來美國,但是又沒有渠道,可以效仿他們,美國會接受嗎?
Warren: there is
no problem for resettlement of people just because they don't like where they
are.
economic reasons is not a cause for
asylum
and USa very wise about all the scams
chinese use before to stay here - religion, had to get aboriton, etc..
沃倫: 人民想到哪裡從新定居應該沒有問題,但是,經濟原因不是政治庇護的理由。美國很明白中國人以前為了留下來而用過的那些騙術---宗教,強迫流產等等。
me: what if they are dissidents?
我: 如果他們是政治異見人士呢?
Warren: hard to do now
沃倫: 現在很難了。
me: so you think
ameircan govt
think those are just tricks?
我: 因此,你認為美國政府認為那都是騙術
Warren: yes, watch all that very closely
沃倫: 是的,政府現在對此看的很緊。
me: then why do they still
take Chen, some people think he played that trick
我: 那麼美國為啥還要收留陳呢。有人認為他也是用了這個把戲。
Warren: i'm not there,
so i don't know,,,personally i'd have left him there, bigger problems to solve in the world than his
沃倫: 我不在那裡,所以我不知道。。。。從個人角度, 我會把他留在中國。美國有比他的問題更大的麻煩需要解決。
me: why do you think
OBAMA has to take him
我: 那為啥奧巴馬還是要收留他?
Warren: it makes it look
like negotiated agreement - china ok to let him go to "study overseas' and
there was place here, NY, that said he could study there, so, it was easy way out to solve for both sides,i think the USA probly was thinking " i wish this guy
would just go away".
"he just fucking up stuff for
our big meeting",cause problems.
沃倫: 這讓整個事情看上去是談好的條件:中國同意讓他離開去「留學」,然後這裡就有地方,紐約大學,說,他可以來這裡學習。這對雙方都是容易的解決方案。我想,美國或許可能當時這麼想來著「我真希望這個傢伙可以走開」「他在這裡給我們這麼重要的會議搗亂,製造問題。」
me: what big meeting?
我: 什麼會議?
Warren: you need to get
"american" mentality.big
meeting that Hillary was there, he
was interrupting her,
the Chen planned the escape for that。
沃倫: 你們要懂得美國人的心理活動。就是希拉里在中國參加的那個會議,他去干擾她。陳是有預謀的逃跑。
me: I heard that he wanted her to bring him back to USA
我: 聽說他要求希拉裡帶他回美國?
Warren: dreaming! so, one guy cause much tension in those talks between USA and china
沃倫: 做夢吧! 一個傢伙給美中之間的會談製造了許多緊張氣氛。
me: so USA don't like it?
我: 這麼說,美國不喜歡這件事?
Warren: internally im
sure they wish it not happen. Gary
Locke
would not want the guy to stay there
沃倫: 內部來說,我相信他們不想發生這樣的事。駱家輝不會想讓他呆在那裡。
後記: 由於時差關係,咱不好意思耽誤生意夥伴的上班時間,咱自己也困的不行。 便暫時打住了。訪談是用Gmail 聊天室進行的。所以,很多英語表達很口語化,也有一些簡寫。比如 Dem, 表示民主黨,R 表示共和黨。
(完)
(正告: 本文為聊天式訪談,沒有預設任何目的,更不代表本人立場,任何不良之徒,隨便扣帽子,將原路奉還。謝謝!)