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拎不清 發表於 2012-4-24 04:01 | 只看該作者
求索 發表於 2012-4-24 01:38
聖經和基督教都是與時俱進。 這是沒有疑問的。 最可笑的是那些辯護者, 一片衷心, 可忠於的對象是誰都不 ...

他們信的是自·已。
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一說 發表於 2012-4-24 05:18 | 只看該作者
本帖最後由 一說 於 2012-4-24 05:19 編輯

正確的意思應該是指向那個(佛教稱作出離心)。

explanation found for Luke 14:26.  One important thing about reading Bible is to interpret in based on historical context and social context.

Verses 25-35
See how Christ in his doctrine suited himself to those to whom he spoke, and gave every one his portion of meat. To Pharisees he preached humility and charity. He is in these verses directing his discourse to the multitudes that crowded after him, and seemed zealous in following him; and his exhortation to them is to understand the terms of discipleship, before they undertook the profession of it, and to consider what they did. See here,
I. How zealous people were in their attendance on Christ (v. 25): There went great multitudes with him, many for love and more for company, for where there are many there will be more. Here was a mixed multitude, like that which went with Israel out of Egypt; such we must expect there will always be in the church, and it will therefore be necessary that ministers should carefully separate between the precious and the vile.
II. How considerate he would have them to be in their zeal. Those that undertake to follow Christ must count upon the worst, and prepare accordingly.
1. He tells them what the worst is that they must count upon, much the same with what he had gone through before them and for them. He takes it for granted that they had a mind to be his disciples, that they might be qualified for preferment in his kingdom. They expected that he should say, "If any man come to me, and be my disciple, he shall have wealth and honour in abundance; let me alone to make him a great man." But he tells them quite the contrary.
(1.) They must be willing to quit that which was very dear, and therefore must come to him thoroughly weaned from all their creature-comforts, and dead to them, so as cheerfully to part with them rather than quit their interest in Christ, v. 26. A man cannot be Christ's disciple but he must hate father, and mother, and his own life. He is not sincere, he will be constant and persevering, unless he love Christ better than any thing in this world, and be willing to part with that which he may and must leave, either as a sacrifice, when Christ may be glorified by our parting with it (so the martyrs, who loved not their lives to death), or as a temptation, when by our parting with it we are put into a better capacity of serving Christ. Thus Abraham parted with his own country, and Moses with Pharaoh's court. Mention is not made here of houses and lands; philosophy will teach a man to look upon these with contempt; but Christianity carries it higher. [1.] Every good man loves his relations; and yet, if he be a disciple of Christ, he must comparatively hate them, must love them less than Christ, as Leah is said to be hated when Rachel was better loved. Not that their persons must be in any degree hated, but our comfort and satisfaction in them must be lost and swallowed up in our love to Christ, as Levi's was, when he said to his father, I have not seen him, Deu. 33:9. When our duty to our parents comes in competition with our evident duty to Christ, we must give Christ the preference. If we must either deny Christ or be banished from our families and relations (as many of the primitive Christians were), we must rather lose their society than his favour. [2.] Every man loves his own life, no man ever yet hated it; and we cannot be Christ's disciples if we do not love him better than our own lives, so as rather to have our lives embittered by cruel bondage, nay, and taken away by cruel deaths, than to dishonour Christ, or depart from any of his truths and ways. The experience of the pleasures of the spiritual life, and the believing hopes and prospects of eternal life, will make this hard saying easy. When tribulation and persecution arise because of the word, then chiefly the trial is, whether we love better, Christ or our relations and lives; yet even in the days of peace this matter is sometimes brought to the trial. Those that decline the service of Christ, and opportunities of converse with him, and are ashamed to confess him, for fear of disobliging a relation or friend, or losing a customer, give cause to suspect that they love him better than Christ.
(2.) That they must be willing to bear that which was very heavy (v. 27): Whosoever doth not bear his cross, as those did that were condemned to be crucified, in submission to the sentence and in expectation of the execution of it, and so come after me whithersoever I shall lead him, he cannot be my disciple; that is (says Dr. Hammond), he is not for my turn; and my service, being so sure to bring persecution along with it, will not be for his. Though the disciples of Christ are not all crucified, yet they all bear their cross, as if they counted upon being crucified. They must be content to be put into an ill name, and to be loaded with infamy and disgrace; for no name is more ignominious than Furcifer-the bearer of the gibbet. He must bear his cross, and come after Christ; that is, he must bear it in the way of his duty, whenever it lies in that way. He must bear it when Christ calls him to it, and in bearing it he must have an eye to Christ, and fetch encouragements from him, and live in hope of a recompence with him.
2. He bids them count upon it, and then consider of it. Since he has been so just to us as to tell us plainly what difficulties we shall meet with in following him, let us be so just to ourselves as to weigh the matter seriously before we take upon us a profession of religion. Joshua obliged the people to consider what they did when they promised to serve the Lord, Jos. 24:19. It is better never to begin than not to proceed; and therefore before we begin we must consider what it is to proceed. This is to act rationally, and as becomes men, and as we do in other cases. The cause of Christ will bear a scrutiny. Satan shows the best, but hides the worst, because his best will not counter-vail his worst; but Christ's will abundantly. This considering of the case is necessary to perseverance, especially in suffering times. Our Saviour here illustrates the necessity of it by two similitudes, the former showing that we must consider the expenses of our religion, the latter that we must consider the perils of it.
(1.) When we take upon us a profession of religion we are like a man that undertakes to build a tower, and therefore must consider the expense of it (v. 28-30): Which of you, intending to build a tower or stately house for himself, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost? and he must be sure to count upon a great deal more than his workmen will tell him it will cost. Let him compare the charge with his purse, lest he make himself to be laughed at, by beginning to build what he is not able to finish. Note, [1.] All that take upon them a profession of religion undertake to build a tower, not as the tower of Babel, in opposition to Heaven, which therefore was left unfinished, but in obedience to Heaven, which therefore shall have its top-stone brought forth. Begin low, and lay the foundation deep, lay it on the rock, and make sure work, and then aim as high as heaven. [2.] Those that intend to build this tower must sit down and count the cost. Let them consider that it will cost them the mortifying of their sins, even the most beloved lusts; it will cost them a life of self-denial and watchfulness, and a constant course of holy duties; it may, perhaps, cost them their reputation among men, their estates and liberties, and all that is dear to them in this world, even life itself. And if it should cost us all this, what is it in comparison with what it cost Christ to purchase the advantages of religion for us, which come to us without money and without price? [3.] Many that begin to build this tower do not go on with it, nor persevere in it, and it is their folly; they have not courage and resolution, have not a rooted fixed principle, and so bring nothing to pass. It is true, we have none of us in ourselves sufficient to finish this tower, but Christ hath said, My grace is sufficient for thee, and that grace shall not be wanting to any of us, if we seek for it and make use of it. [4.] Nothing is more shameful than for those that have begun well in religion to break off; every one will justly mock him, as having lost all his labour hitherto for want of perseverance. We lose the things we have wrought (2 Jn. 8), and all we have done and suffered is in vain, Gal. 3:4.
(2.) When we undertake to be Christ's disciples we are like a man that goes to war, and therefore must consider the hazard of it, and the difficulties that are to be encountered, v. 31, 32. A king that declares war against a neighbouring prince considers whether he has strength wherewith to make his part good, and, if not, he will lay aside his thoughts of war. Note, [1.] The state of a Christian in this world is a military state. Is not the Christian life a warfare? We have many passes in our way, that must be disputed with dint of sword; nay, we must fight every step we go, so restless are our spiritual enemies in their opposition. [2.] We ought to consider whether we can endure the hardness which a good soldier of Jesus Christ must expect and count upon, before we enlist ourselves under Christ's banner; whether we are able to encounter the forces of hell and earth, which come against us twenty thousand strong. [3.] Of the two it is better to make the best terms we can with the world than pretend to renounce it and afterwards, when tribulation and persecution arise because of the word, to return to it. That young man that could not find in his heart to part with his possessions for Christ did better to go away from Christ sorrowing than to have staid with him dissembling.
This parable is another way applicable, and may be taken as designed to teach us to begin speedily to be religious, rather than to begin cautiously; and may mean the same with Mt. 5:25, Agree with thine adversary quickly. Note, First, Those that persist in sin make war against God, the most unnatural, unjustifiable war; they rebel against their lawful sovereign, whose government is perfectly just and good. Secondly, The proudest and most daring sinner is no equal match for God; the disproportion of strength is much greater than that here supposed between ten thousand and twenty thousand. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he? No, surely; who knows the power of his anger? In consideration of this, it is our interest to make peace with him. We need not send to desire conditions of peace; they are offered to us, and are unexceptionable, and highly to our advantage. Let us acquaint ourselves with them, and be at peace; do this in time, while the other is yet a great way off; for delays in such a case are highly dangerous, and make after-applications difficult.
But the application of this parable here (v. 33) is to the consideration that ought to be exercised when we take upon us a profession of religion. Solomon saith, With good advice make war (Prov. 20:18); for he that draws the sword throws away the scabbard; so with good advice enter upon a profession of religion, as those that know that except you forsake all you have you cannot be Christ's disciples; that is, except you count upon forsaking all and consent to it, for all that will live godly in Christ Jesus must suffer persecution, and yet continue to live godly.
3. He warns them against apostasy and a degeneracy of mind from the truly Christian spirit and temper, for that would make them utterly useless, v. 34, 35. (1.) Good Christians are the salt of the earth, and good ministers especially (Mt. 5:13); and this salt is good and of great use; by their instructions and examples they season all they converse with, to keep them from putrefying, and to quicken them, and make them savoury. (2.) Degenerate Christians, who, rather than part with what they have in the world, will throw up their profession, and then of course become carnal, and worldly, and wholly destitute of a Christian spirit, are like salt that has lost its savour, like that which the chemists call the caput mortuum, that has all its salts drawn from it, that is the most useless worthless thing in the world; it has no manner of virtue or good property in it. [1.] It can never be recovered: Wherewith shall it be seasoned? You cannot salt it. This intimates that it is extremely difficult, and next to impossible, to recover an apostate, Heb. 6:4-6. If Christianity will not prevail to cure men of their worldliness and sensuality, if that remedy has been tried in vain, their ease must even be concluded desperate. [2.] It is of no use. It is not fit, as dung is, for the land, to manure that, nor will it be the better if it be laid in the dunghill to rot; there is nothing to be got out of it. A professor of religion whose mind and manners are depraved is the most insipid animal that can be. If he speaks of the things of God, of which he has had some knowledge, it is so awkwardly that none are the better for it: it is a parable in the mouth of a fool. [3.] It is abandoned: Men cast it out, as that which they will have no more to do with. Such scandalous professors ought to be cast out of the church, not only because they have forfeited all the honours and privileges of their church-membership, but because there is danger that others will be infected by them. Our Saviour concludes this with a call to all to take notice of it, and to take warning: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Now can the faculty of hearing be better employed than in attending to the word of Christ, and particularly to the alarms he has given us of the danger we are in of apostasy, and the danger we run ourselves into by apostasy?
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來往加國 發表於 2012-4-24 09:27 | 只看該作者
同行天路 發表於 2012-4-22 08:17
看了一下,有標註「原文作」的地方是意譯,括弧內是直譯,兩相對照就更明白了,再不然的話看原文。既沒有「 ...

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來往加國 發表於 2012-4-24 09:29 | 只看該作者
·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-23 20:18
譯者自己明知道原文寫的啥,為啥要改?

難道你不需要翻譯?你為什麼要翻譯不用原文呢?
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來往加國 發表於 2012-4-24 09:31 | 只看該作者
·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-23 20:10
別打岔,先說你打算恨還是愛父母妻子兒女呢?

是你打岔了。你的原帖不是擔心別人的救恩嗎?那麼你自己呢?不需要救恩嗎?
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來往加國 發表於 2012-4-24 09:34 | 只看該作者
·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-23 20:09
俺說的就是活著的人啊。你是按照耶穌原話說的恨你的父母妻子兒女呢?還是按照那些「已故人」改的愛你的父 ...

「已故人」怎麼做咱不用管,那麼,還活著的人呢?歸根結底是人與神的關係,不是嗎?
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催肥 發表於 2012-4-24 13:34 | 只看該作者
sousuo 發表於 2012-4-23 11:12
有什麼急可言,碰上不講理的,難免有點煩人。

什麼地方人身攻擊了? ...

俺逗你的,你這最多算是論斷人。

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 樓主| ·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-24 19:48 | 只看該作者
本帖最後由 ·八戒· 於 2012-4-24 19:52 編輯
拎不清 就是這樣的人,上天堂。經上說:「吃的日子還會活下去(還會活下去,原文作必死)」。

當然,還是要區別對待,撒旦說的你就要按原文,以充分暴露他的「狼子野心」,如果是「翻譯」呢,你就可以反過來理解
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 樓主| ·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-24 19:51 | 只看該作者
來往加國 「已故人」怎麼做咱不用管,那麼,還活著的人呢?歸根結底是人與神的關係,不是嗎?

和哪個神的關係呢? 是耶穌呢還是「翻譯」?

先說你打算恨還是愛父母妻子兒女呢?
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 樓主| ·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-24 19:53 | 只看該作者
來往加國難道你不需要翻譯?你為什麼要翻譯不用原文呢?

「翻譯」是把「恨」翻譯成「愛」么?
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 樓主| ·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-26 00:08 | 只看該作者
等了好幾天,至今這裡的基督徒們也沒一個敢按照教會的「標準答案」回答這個「原文作」。按照教會的「標準答案」,基督教要「以經解經」,對於某些看起來「有問題」的原文要按照教會的「解經思路」去理解,這便是翻譯原文時「修正」的根本原因。對於明顯與原文相反的「解釋」,不得不加上這個「原文作」來告訴你,這裡有大的改動,意思相反。對於那些「用詞不當」的地方,就偷偷的換了,連「原文作」這樣的解釋都沒有啦。比如那個三天後改成第三天。

從這些「修正」出現的頻率可以看出來,大小「修正」和今天人們平時語言犯錯的頻率是一樣的,每個人說話,寫東西都會有出錯或不準確的地方。那麼這就帶來一個問題,神會不會也和人一樣出錯?顯然,這些地方聖經原文表述錯誤或者用詞不當了。如果神不會錯,那就是這些「代筆」的人寫錯了,也就是聖經不過是人的「心得筆記」而已,根本沒有那麼神聖。

到底是哪個?基督徒敢回答嗎?不敢。因為明知是錯,卻不敢把這個錯明說出來,愣要說「都對」 「恨」和「愛」能都對嗎?
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睿智老和尚 發表於 2012-4-26 01:41 | 只看該作者
天棚元帥, 你想那麼多, 不痛苦啊? 嘿嘿
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 樓主| ·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-26 02:28 | 只看該作者
睿智老和尚 發表於 2012-4-26 01:41
天棚元帥, 你想那麼多, 不痛苦啊? 嘿嘿

痛苦原文作快樂
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拎不清 發表於 2012-4-26 02:46 | 只看該作者
·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-26 00:08
等了好幾天,至今這裡的基督徒們也沒一個敢按照教會的「標準答案」回答這個「原文作」。按照教會的「標準答 ...

回答(1)你不信,說了你也不懂。(2)如果你想信就會回答那是補充說明,(3)如果已是信徒就回答這就是神的漸進啟示,(4)如果是聖經比較熟的老基督徒,不同意這說法就說此人是異端,
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 樓主| ·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-26 03:19 | 只看該作者
拎不清 發表於 2012-4-26 02:46
回答(1)你不信,說了你也不懂。(2)如果你想信就會回答那是補充說明,(3)如果已是信徒就回答這就是 ...

一句話,咋說咋有理
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研究 發表於 2012-4-26 04:52 | 只看該作者
查了你的原文作出處,其實是一本有意誤導的聖經。就拿他自身所引用 的羅德是亞伯拉罕的兄弟的譯法,無論前後文或與聖經其他章節對比,都不合適,這裡根據原文字意應該為亞伯拉罕的親戚羅德或親人羅德,而不是「兄弟」。中文和合本聖經沒有此註釋。
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 樓主| ·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-26 19:34 | 只看該作者
研究 發表於 2012-4-26 04:52
查了你的原文作出處,其實是一本有意誤導的聖經。就拿他自身所引用 的羅德是亞伯拉罕的兄弟的譯法,無論前 ...

很好,你也看出來是「有意誤導的聖經」,那麼俺就要問這個問題啊,為啥你們要「有意誤導」呢?

中文和合本聖經對那句耶穌的話是怎麼翻譯的呢?是「恨」還是「愛」?是「三天後」還是「第三天」?有沒有「有意誤導」呢?
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追求永生 發表於 2012-4-26 19:57 | 只看該作者
·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-20 13:39
很好的問題  啟示錄好像對此專門說了,

22:18我向一切聽見這書上預言的作見證,若有人在這預 ...

是你自己沒有明白,譯文不是改變原文。世界上的聖經譯文成千上萬,有不同的讀者範圍,比如給小孩看的聖經,插圖的聖經,你是不是都認為是篡改?

不知道你看沒看到過聖經原文和英文或者其他文字的字典,一個原文要對應少至幾個多至幾十個譯文的單詞,你自己說說你自己的方法怎樣做才不是篡改?
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 樓主| ·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-26 20:15 | 只看該作者
追求永生 發表於 2012-4-26 19:57
是你自己沒有明白,譯文不是改變原文。世界上的聖經譯文成千上萬,有不同的讀者範圍,比如給小孩看的聖經 ...

任何一個文字都不可能「恨」和「愛」通用啊。你給俺找出來,哪個國家的文字這兩個意思通用?

聖經哪個地方告訴你的不同人需要不同的「翻譯」?
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求真理不倦悔

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追求永生 發表於 2012-4-27 02:54 | 只看該作者
·八戒· 發表於 2012-4-26 07:15
任何一個文字都不可能「恨」和「愛」通用啊。你給俺找出來,哪個國家的文字這兩個意思通用?

聖經 ...

你也傳染了老七的毛病了。

第一,我又沒和你說過,你跟我說有什麼用?

第二,我不認為你如實地轉述了原話。
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