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在美一方 發表於 2008-9-28 09:08 | 只看該作者

回復 19樓 至善 的帖子

你17樓說,要用科學語言來答用科學來問的問題。科學語言不僅僅咬文嚼字,而是極其咬文嚼字,講究精確描述。其實我本沒有打算用科學來問,但是看到你主貼里就使用了細胞、神經、微生物、生物學等等字詞,所以才有了我貌似科學的一問。如果你的本意並不想咬科學文嚼科學字,那我還是退下吧。有擾清修了。抱歉!
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 樓主| 至善 發表於 2008-9-28 11:17 | 只看該作者

回復 21樓 在美一方 的帖子

在美也承認科學語言極其咬文嚼字, 說道細節是很繁複的,對你我都一樣。 我想科學和學佛一樣, 也是先從主體思想再到枝末的細節,禪宗有說"但求本,何愁末"。  如果是對進入佛學(或者怎麼溝通科學到佛學)的疑惑,我是極樂意奉陪到底的 (歡迎到菩提樹下開貼)。  主貼主要回答的是植物和細菌是不是在佛戒殺生的範圍,對於真正學佛者,這不是問題,但是對初學者甚至愛「抬杠」的人,時有碰到。 謝謝理解
青青翠竹 儘是法身
鬱郁黃花 無非般若
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子竹青青 發表於 2008-9-28 11:23 | 只看該作者
樓主好執著.
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在美一方 發表於 2008-9-28 11:33 | 只看該作者
原帖由 至善 於 2008-9-28 11:17 發表 [殺生的範圍 - 信仰天地 -  backchina.com]  
我想科學和學佛一樣, 也是先從主體思想再到枝末的細節,禪宗有說"但求本,何愁末"。  


科學體系如此,但科學方法未必如此,既可循主幹覓枝節,亦可朔枝節達主幹。
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無限還原 發表於 2008-9-28 12:16 | 只看該作者
我個人覺得不殺生是好的。。
如不吃肉, 吃蔬救地球, 減少溫室效應。
請大家多多吃蔬,少吃肉類。

註:本人不是佛教徒, 可是對佛學有興趣,加是一位素食主義者,環保主義者。。和南無慈悲耶穌菩薩, 南無大智慧耶和華菩薩 , 宗教和平主義者。
如果3合1 是道路,一定是極端的斜路
如果3合1 是真理,殺人家孩子是光榮
如果3合1 是生命,侮辱給我們生命的父母
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 樓主| 至善 發表於 2008-9-28 12:40 | 只看該作者

回復 23樓 子竹青青 的帖子

送青青一句話"寧執有見如須彌,不執無見如芥子"。 如不執著善法,就談不上捨棄執著了,呵呵
青青翠竹 儘是法身
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悠悠然 發表於 2008-9-28 13:45 | 只看該作者
樓主說:蟲蟻都會自然地知道逃避死亡的危險,植物則不然。
  
   含羞草在遇到第一滴雨的時候,就會立即將所有的葉子收攏。捕蠅草在感知到昆蟲爬進葉子的時候,其葉片會迅速關閉。松樹在遇到昆蟲啃噬樹榦的時候,會立即分泌松香,以粘住昆蟲。
  研究證實,非洲草原上某些種類的樹木,在遇到動物啃噬的時候,會立即開始合成毒素,這顯然是在阻止動物將葉子吃光。更奇妙的是,這棵樹會利用氣味向臨近的同類發出警告,臨近的樹會因此而立即開始製造毒素。
  看來,植物的感覺遠比大多數人想象的要複雜。植物同樣怕死,同樣會用某些手段減少被殺的幾率。植物的感覺與反應方式只是與動物相距甚遠。
  佛教可能是將不殺生的範圍定在動物界,至於為何這樣定,外人可能無從知曉,但如果就此解釋為植物沒有感覺,可能並不十分確切。雖然植物不會像動物一樣「逃離」。

[ 本帖最後由 悠悠然 於 2008-9-28 13:47 編輯 ]
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 樓主| 至善 發表於 2008-9-28 14:11 | 只看該作者

回復 27樓 悠悠然 的帖子

這位網友說的不錯,問題是含羞草等的「動」是如「機械式「的反應呢(我聽學生物的如此解釋)還是通過了意識? 沒有意識還叫不叫感覺?如果有意識思想的話,現有的科學知識是解釋不通的(如神經系統,用什麼來思想等)也無足夠的研究。在這方面,佛教對於植物的生命形態說得很少,植物也不在輪迴之中。  往深入的說,佛教理論對感知的說法,可以解釋植物有可能也有感知,但是已經不是現有科學可驗證的範圍了。
青青翠竹 儘是法身
鬱郁黃花 無非般若
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seanz 發表於 2008-9-28 14:44 | 只看該作者
我不是佛門弟子,但我很欽佩素食主義者。是的,我是肉食動物 。我的看法是食肉與否緣於心靈的感動,因此,我討厭牛肉可吃,狗肉不可吃的笑話。我更討厭在這個問題上按照自己的需要變幻決定. 如此,一個可怕的後果是我的求生需要避免不了我要食人.我想說,今天這個物質條件為我們提供了食素的選折可能,憐惜生靈(得眼淚)而食素是應得讚許的合理的選擇,這不是一個宗教,信仰問題.
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雨中栽花 發表於 2008-9-28 17:12 | 只看該作者
原帖由 至善 於 2008-9-28 09:01 發表 [殺生的範圍 - 信仰天地 -  backchina.com]  


栽花對不起,我不太會說話,明顯說話語氣讓您不爽。我確實是抱著學習的心說的。我也很喜歡看一些"奇聞",只不過現在比較喜歡推敲。我評價"植物能記住傷害者"是用理性的。如果您有資料或者說理討論,我會改變觀點 ...


其實不是語氣的問題,如果你真是這樣認為的,也不用掩飾你的想法,這裡是自由的天地。主要是觀點不同,必然引起爭論。 關於殺生,我是這樣想的,這是個很古老的提法,古人顯然沒有現代人的認知,所以這個動物的分類主要是有了現代的知識才開始的。既然這樣,只能說這是一個改良說法。

其次,科學是不斷前進的,如果你真的想了解,其實可以看看進化的東西。按我的理解,從無機的東西進化到人再進化到人類社會,所謂人與動物,植物的界限並不是非常明顯的。人雖然是頂級的構造,但是也有低級生物所具有的各種行為。比如計算機是用來運算的,但是散熱片不好,也能死機。這個就是很低級的問題了。

如果要評價殺生,非要用動物的等級來分類,那麼人這種動物在攝食方面也談不上多麼高等。這是命中注定的。又何必給予一個人道的說法呢,生存競爭永遠都是存在的。人道是不能泛濫到其他非人的動物範圍內的。
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無限還原 發表於 2008-9-28 23:01 | 只看該作者

回復 29樓 seanz 的帖子

請改變飲食習慣。
多吃菜,少吃肉,可以救救地球。。
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無限還原 發表於 2008-9-28 23:02 | 只看該作者

回復 30樓 雨中栽花 的帖子

也希望你可以支持多吃菜,少吃肉來救救地球。。
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Pathless 發表於 2008-9-29 01:01 | 只看該作者
講一講我的看法經驗。我是"泛"素食者,就是如果可以的話我是堅持吃素,若情況造成其他人不方便,我也造吃肉無妨,但唯一我幾乎不吃的是紅肉-牛羊鴨豬,這不是因為宗教關係,很多是因為健康理由。素食若吃得營養均勻恰當真的對健康有好處,這是無論是醫學上或自己體驗上都能證實。但是如果說素食就能減少殺生,這就有待商討了。因為在種植生產過程中許多有情動物如昆蟲類會被殺害,以及被砍伐的原有的森林植物。這被殺害的昆蟲植物會影響到整個大ecosystem, 所以很可能也會間接的傷害到其他更"高級"的有情動物的生存,因為動植物和所有的微生物都是相互依賴而生存的。佛陀及非中國佛教體系僧眾在戒律上雖然不可無故殺生及砍伐植物,但他們是不持素的。
Loving kindness
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在美一方 發表於 2008-9-29 01:20 | 只看該作者
倒是想要請教佛弟子們什麼是有情什麼是無情?誰定義的?不然雲里霧裡的,總覺得有時候想討論,得到的回答卻感覺像是我捨本逐末了不懂佛理了,讓咱感到討論無從下手,心裡惶惶然的
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Pathless 發表於 2008-9-29 01:53 | 只看該作者

回復 34樓 在美一方 的帖子

在我了解上,我想在我們地球上有情是指一群有著"獨立神經系統"defined central nervous system 的生物。有著基本知道"自己"存在為立點的意識"consciousness"。也有著對外在環境有"情感"感知的生物。一般在佛經里是指人類及所有有神經系統的動物昆蟲。但這也包括靈界天上的神靈,阿修羅,鬼道眾生。 無情是指一切石頭山河,也包括所謂的植物細菌病毒。但是所謂眾生是包括所有有"生命"的東西,包括植物細菌病毒。這只是我的看法。

[ 本帖最後由 Pathless 於 2008-9-29 01:59 編輯 ]
Loving kindness
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在美一方 發表於 2008-9-29 02:03 | 只看該作者

回復 35樓 Pathless 的帖子

謝謝你分享你的理解。
哪位佛弟子來指點我一二?點名了啊。熊貓?迷子?老和?
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溫和寶 發表於 2008-9-29 02:07 | 只看該作者
我們假設有那麼一條食物鏈,大魚吃小魚,小魚吃蝦米,蝦米吃水草。。。。。哪一天,大魚信了什麼教,不吃小魚了,改吃素了吃水草了。結果呢,雖然放生了小魚,但卻滅絕了蝦米。因為,小魚沒有了天敵,繁殖增加,又會吃掉更多的蝦米。大魚改吃水草后又搶奪了蝦米的生存資源。於是蝦米滅絕了。
這裡我們就該譴責這個大魚了,為了自己修行,改變了大自然多年形成的食物鏈,造成蝦米的滅絕。
人類千百萬年形成的特徵,該吃什麼就吃什麼,不要特意去挑揀。我不相信,一個人不吃什麼葷腥,就可以修鍊的更好一些。或者,如果經常吃葷腥就修不好。
我從來就覺得,有些宗教的禁忌,真是一點用都沒有,而且還說不定有害處。
珍愛生命 遠離毒教!
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東北老兵 發表於 2008-9-29 02:16 | 只看該作者
人類智識上的認知是「無定」的,此一時彼一時罷了。少小時我曾疑惑上帝為何要造「蛇、鼠、蚊、蠅」之類,並且由此引發出更多疑問來 ... ...

現在明白這等知識本無定案長規,於「愛人如己」也毫無干係。

可能是多嘴了。
不是依靠勢力不是依靠才能惟靠耶和華的靈方能成事
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Pathless 發表於 2008-9-29 02:36 | 只看該作者

回復 40樓 xygame 的帖子

這是我在網上一個有關上座(小乘)佛教對植物是不是眾生的探討:

Borderline beings: plant possibilities in early Buddhism.
Publication Date: 01-APR-02
Publication Title: The Journal of the American Oriental Society
Format: Online
Author: Findly, Ellison Banks

THE QUESTION OF WHETHER PLANTS are considered living and sentient beings in Pali Buddhism is brought to the fore by early Buddhist teachings on non-violence. In discussions of the Patimokkha, the Vinaya makes clear that monks and nuns are not to cut down trees (rukkha) in the course of repairing their lodgings, because in so doing they will cause injury to one-facultied living beings. (1) Likewise, they are not to cut down young palmyra palms to wear as shoes, and are also cautioned against trampling down crops and grasses as they walk among alms-donors during the rainy season, as they may injure one-facultied living beings. (2) This monastic prohibition is then echoed in the Majjhima Nikaya as a virtuous monk celebrates his practiced restraint from destroying seed- and vegetable-growth. (3)

If plants and seeds--including grasses, creepers, bushes, and trees--are, as one of the objects of the ethic of non-violence, not to be injured, then it would make sense that they would be included among those designated as living, sentient beings. And if they are designated as living, sentient beings, then they should, concomitantly, be a part of the samsaric world and in some way subject to the laws of kamma. The texts of the early Pali canon are, however, as Lambert Schmithausen has carefully shown, relatively silent about the place of plants in the scheme of samsaric life. While later Buddhist texts are clearer about plants being not counted as sentient beings, earlier texts have "no explicit statement declaring plants or even earth and water to be living, sentient beings," nor do they seem to have "an explicit... statement denying them the status of sentient beings." Thus, "plants... in Earliest Buddhism [are] a kind of borderline case." (4)

Pro-life prescriptions on plants in the Patimokkha refer, most likely, to prevailing social views rather than to those of the renunciants themselves. "This code' Schmithausen argues, "is not concerned with spiritual practice nor even with morality proper ... but, mainly, with regulating how monks and nuns had to behave in society." (5) Many local householders of the time still retain their old belief in plants as sentient beings, and, although they themselves cannot consistently practice an impractical standard like ahimsa, especially with regard to plants, they think it unfit for ascetics of the time to practice anything but plant ahimsa. The Patimokkha proscription on killing plants, then, is not "an element of moral, or ethically motivated, conduct in the strict sense but ... rather a matter of ascetic decorum." (6) Thus, Buddhist practice is influenced by renunciant desire to please the local people--or, as I have shown elsewhere, the donors to the Sangha (7)--by, on the one hand, practicing plant ahimsa themselves and, on the other, by allowing householder donors to freely use plants and plant products in their daily lives. This latter Buddhism does by, at first, being silent about plants as living things and, later, actively excluding them as objects of a non-violent ethic.

Schmithausen further suggest that "originally also the monks themselves, and even the Buddha, [may] still somehow [have] held the view that plants and seeds were living beings." Early on, however, there is a "shifting emphasis from the ahimsa aspect towards matters of ascetic decorum"--already evident in discussion of the Patimokkha rule--and the exclusion of plants from the ahimsa rule then becomes, more or less, standard practice. "My personal feeling," he concludes concerning early Buddhist monastic sentiment, is that plants "are certainly not sentient in the same way as men or so-called higher animals. But they may not be entirely insentient either, and they are certainly alive. We simply do not know what it means for a plant itself to live or to be injured or killed." (8)

In this paper, then, I follow Schmithausen's suggestion as a starting point and, assuming that plant sentience is a viable view for monastics in early Buddhism, explore in religious systems of the broader contemporary period some of the dimensions of this sentience: first, the sense faculty of "touch" and, second, the idea of "stability" as related to the gunas of tamas and sattva.

For early Buddhism one of the most important traditions for views on plants is that of the Jains who, as hylozoists, consider all matter to have life. Jams unabashedly view plants as living beings, and still vital forms of plants such as mildew, seeds, and sprouts are to be conspicuously avoided as food by renunciants. Not only are plants living beings, but they are clearly the objects of a Jam ethic of non-violence. (9) It is this view, in fact, which textual prescriptions carry to unprecedented extremes and, in putting off potential donors with the rigidity of rules about what can be eaten and what not, open the door for the more accommodating Buddhist practice of generating donor goodwill and avoiding censure through a practice of the middle way.

The Buddhism of the Pali canon is indefinite at best about whether plants are living beings. The exclusion of plants from this category is found, generally, in the use of the term pana, "breathing beings." While in Jainism this term includes plants, in early Buddhism (with the exception of such passages as Suttanipata nos. 600-611) it usually designates only animals (10) and is often the designation of objects of a non-violent ethic. (11) Moreover, while plants are included in the traditional listing of births found in the Upanisads and Jainism, viz., as "sprout-born" (udbhijja), (12) similar lists found in Buddhism do not include any possibilities for plants: e.g., "egg-born" (andaja), "womb-born" (jalabuja), "moisture-born" (samsedaja, as in beings arising from the fluids of rotting materials), and "spontaneously arisen" (opapatika, as in devas). (13) Again, the Buddhist scheme of the five gatis, or destinies after death--hell/purgatory (niraya), animal (tiracchana) birth, hungry ghost world (pittivisaya), human (manussa) birth, deity (deva) birth (14)--does not include plant rebirth as a possibility among its destinies. This theme, finally, is reflected in a later passage from the Milindapanho which distinguishes among 1) those things born of kamma (kam-maja), 2) those things born of cause (hetuja), and 3) those things born of physical change (utuja). Kammic beings are those which are cognizant; caused beings are fire and everything born of seeds; (15) and beings born of seasonal or physical change are earth, mountains, water, and wind. Thus plants, in these passages, are excluded from the kammic/samsaric cycle.

More favorable to the notion of plants as living beings is the Buddhist list of the five ways to propagate vegetable growth, viz., from roots, stems, joints, cuttings, and seeds. (16) These propagational categories, moreover, support the general sense of the term for plants or vegetation, bhutagama, whose components (bhuta, evolving being, and gama, collection) suggest objects full of life and growth in a Buddhist world that is perceived to be continually arising and decaying. It is this measure of bhutagama which Schmithausen has so carefully taken, and which may be a useful starting point for suggesting notions supportive of an early Buddhist pro-life view of plants.

PLANTS AS EKINDRIYA AND THE SENSE FACULTY OF "TOUCH"

If the goal is to discern the prospects for plant participation in the samsaric cycle, there are two helpful clues in the Pali canon. The first is the canonical designation of plants as ekindriya or one-facultied beings, and the clarification that the one sense faculty they have is that of touch (kaya). The indriyas, the "controlling powers" or sense faculties, are a common element in the psychologies of the emergent Buddhist world, and in the Pali canon there is frequent mention of the five or six indriyas either alone (17) or as the first section of longer lists. (18) The early tradition understands the process of perception to begin with the senses and to be based on ayatanas or "spheres" associated with each of the faculties. Each sphere has two aspects, an inner or subjective one (ajjhattika) and an outer or objective one (bahira). The interior aspect designates the organ itself, i.e., eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body, and the exterior aspect designates the objects, i.e., the visible, the audible, the olfactory, the gustatory, and the tactile, with which the organ comes in contact. When there is contact (phassa) between an organ and an object, there is sensing and knowing. (19) For example, in the case of touch, the body (kaya) comes in contact with a tangible (photthabba), and there is touching (phusitva) as well as the sensory knowledge that is brought about by touching, or the consciousness gained by means of touch (kayavinnana). Moreover, because through touch the tangible is known, that which is to be perceived by touch, photthabba, is known as the kayavinneyya. (20)

Because the senses are the faculties through which sensory data is initially received, they belong to the first khandha or "aggregate" of the "selfing".

[ 本帖最後由 Pathless 於 2008-9-29 02:38 編輯 ]
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Pathless 發表於 2008-9-29 03:05 | 只看該作者

回復 43樓 xygame 的帖子

我想若在有情無情或眾生分類里探討一個究竟,這結果往往並沒辦法鍥入為什麼佛,舍那和印度教對殺生的禁止。從最鍥入的層次說"不殺生",這是有關"心念",動機"的問題,因為所謂的"karma" - 導致因果報應的業,是建立在"行蘊"上,這是心念根本的問題。
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