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hellen_luo8705 發表於 2007-3-30 14:53 | 只看該作者
原帖由 raninchrist 於 2007-3-30 02:40 發表
...
第二,信耶穌基督的人也是講究科學驗證和探索的。我們信的神是活在歷史中的,兩千年前,他走在巴勒斯坦的土地上,被定死在羅馬人的十字架上,第三天從死里復活,等等。每一樣事件都可以用科學的歷史方法來探索。不信,你可以去探索探索!...



請看朽木大蝦在其他帖子里的回復:
原帖由 朽木 於 2007-3-30 00:36 發表


哈,您是用您科學的頭腦在讀聖經,俺不這麼讀,俺認為聖經是關乎生命和敬虔的。

起初,神創造天地,地是空虛混沌,淵面黑暗。

接下來的,就是神要解決「空虛混沌,淵面黑暗」的問題。

首先, 神創 ...


原帖由 朽木 於 2007-3-30 00:46 發表


嘿嘿,好問題。俺也想不明白。按照亞理斯多德的邏輯結論,他認為神只能發獃。  所以,您看,邏輯用到極限也只能如此。
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 樓主| raninchrist 發表於 2007-3-31 16:20 | 只看該作者

回復 #61 hellen_luo8705 的帖子

你叫朽木兄自己來看比較好。如果斷章取義,只會產生誤會。
我同意他說的,但你要明白一點區別:上帝是絕對超越和隱藏的,所以人有限的理性無法認識他(這是朽木所講的)。同時上帝是完全臨在和顯明的,就是道成肉身的耶穌基督,是可以叫人認識的。所以,我叫你去探索探索。當然,探索歸探索,理性的認識有幫助,但不是核心問題。人不認識上帝,是因為罪的阻擋。除非你認識到自己是個罪人,無法自救,又知道耶穌為罪人死在十字架上,然後信靠他,才會認識他。
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常常 發表於 2007-4-1 01:08 | 只看該作者

回復 #62 raninchrist 的帖子

上帝是絕對超越和隱藏的,所以人有限的理性無法認識他


除了耶穌,人類就不能認識上帝?那麼該隱所見,亞伯拉罕所見,摩西所見,又是誰呢?
多喱咪化嗦啦柒哆!!!(1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
飛行麵條怪與你同在!拉麵!
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/飛行麵條怪物信仰
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 樓主| raninchrist 發表於 2007-4-1 03:11 | 只看該作者

回復 #63 常常 的帖子

終於有個好問題了!有點不容易回答。
正統基督教相信,他們所見的就是道成肉身以前、永恆神的獨生子,他成為肉身以後的名字就是耶穌基督。
耶穌說:
你們的祖宗亞伯拉罕歡歡喜喜的仰望我的日子,既看見了就快樂。」  猶太人說:「你還沒有五十歲,豈見過亞伯拉罕呢?」  耶穌說:「我實實在在的告訴你們,還沒有亞伯拉罕就有了我。」  於是他們拿石頭要打他;耶穌卻躲藏,從殿里出去了。
(Joh 8:56-59)


當然還有其他經文,例如,希伯來書11章提到很多舊約有信心的人(包括亞伯拉罕),最後聖經說:
我們既有這許多的見證人,如同雲彩圍著我們,就當放下各樣的重擔,脫去容易纏累我們的罪,存心忍耐,奔那擺在我們前頭的路程,  仰望為我們信心創始成終的耶穌。他因那擺在前面的喜樂,就輕看羞辱,忍受了十字架的苦難,便坐在神寶座的右邊。
(Heb 12:1-2)


所以,所有相信神的人信心的實底都是耶穌。舊約的人肉眼看到的可能只是預表(type)或影子(shadow),但都是指向耶穌基督。在他以外,天上地下沒有賜下其他名,人可以靠著得救。

這是聖經的教導,我承認,在基督教會歷史中,很多人偏離這個重要的真理,好像天主教高舉瑪麗亞和其他所謂「聖人」。
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iamcaibird 發表於 2007-4-1 03:46 | 只看該作者

繼樓下造了無神論聖經后,我發現了倫理無神論十戒- likellllll

繼樓下造了無神論聖經后,我發現了倫理無神論十戒         
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        來源: likellllll 於 06-06-08 10:17:42 [檔案] [博客] [舊帖] [轉至博客] [給我悄悄話]        
                     
        繼樓下造了無神論聖經后,我發現了倫理無神論十戒

(後面有英文解釋)

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/ten_commandments.html#4
倫理無神論者十戒:
1. Thou SHALT NOT believe all thou art told.
不要輕信
2. Thou SHALT seek knowledge and truth constantly.
不斷的追求知識和真理
3. Thou SHALT educate thy fellow man in the Laws of Science.
努力傳播科學知識和科學定律.
4. Thou SHALT NOT forget the atrocities committed in the name of god.
永不忘記人類以上帝的名對別人實施的殘暴行徑.
5. Thou SHALT leave valuable contributions for future generations.
要把有價值的貢獻留給後人.
6. Thou SHALT live in peace with thy fellow man.
要與所有人類和平相處.
7. Thou SHALT live this one life thou hast to its fullest.
要珍惜寶貴的今生,過好在世的每一天.
8. Thou SHALT follow a Personal Code of Ethics.
遵循人道倫理法典
9. Thou SHALT maintain a strict separation between Church and State.
嚴格執行政教分離的基本原則.
10. Thou SHALT support those who follow these commandments.
堅決支持遵循以上法典的人們.

倫理無神論者副十戒:

I. Thou shalt worship only reason
只許祭拜理智
II. Thou shalt abstain from invoking deities in the affairs of man
嚴禁拜人們編造的神靈
III. Thou shalt disdain all ritual
永不驕傲自大
IV. Thou shalt abhor priestliness
堅決反對傳教活動
V. Thou shalt loathe superstition
堅決反對迷信活動.
VI. Thou shalt reject all forms of spiritualism and supernaturalism
堅決反對唯心主義和宗教迷信主義.
VI. Thou shalt regard skepticism as a virtue
以懷疑論的眼光看待一切並作為座右銘
VIII. Thou shalt reject racism
反對種族主義,種族歧視種族迫害.
IX. Thou shalt reject all claims to a moral authority greater than man 
拒絕任何自稱超人的道德權威.
X. Thou shalt, in word and action, strive to improve the human condition
言行一至為改善人類而奮鬥.

*******************************************************************
DISCUSSION ON THE TEN COMMANDMENTS (of the Ethical Atheist):
1. Thou SHALT NOT believe all thou art told. (back to top)
Humans are generally very gullible. We believe are sorts of false statements,
stories, reasoning, etc. We even continue to believe falsehoods after they
have been proven untrue. History is full of amazing hoaxes often supported
by religion and the teachings of the Church (see Science, Truth and the
Church) or by others seeking power, popularity or fortune. We have been
told the Earth was flat and has four corners which, if not careful, we may
fall off. We have been told that the Earth is the center of the Universe.
We have been told that sky if a fixed, firm structure to which the sun,
moon and stars are affixed. We have been told that personalities and future
events are predictable using astrology, card reading, crystal balls and
palm reading. We have been told of prophecies by Nostradamas. We have been
told of speaking with the dead, the dead rising, life after death, reincarnation
and bending spoons, to name only a few. We must be more skeptical in what
we are told, what we read and what we are exposed to through the various
forms of broadcast media. When exposed to something new, do NOT accept what
you hear without facts to support it. There are other agendas at work in
your deception. You must always be on guard to protect yourself and your
knowledge.2. Thou SHALT seek knowledge and truth constantly. (back to
top)
There are many adverse factors making it difficult for us to obtain knowledge
and the truth. There is often no motivating factor driving others to present
you with fair, factual, scientific truths. By weaving a complex web of lies,
religions are able to control people and remain in power. Governments may
hide facts and events for fear of scaring the public. There are more advertising
dollars and higher ratings in broadcasting claims of communicating with
the dead than in Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion. Therefore, we must take
an active role in our own education and constantly seek the truth. It isn't
always obvious and is often very difficult to obtain. Thou SHALT make time
to read non-fiction. Thou SHALT make time to view educational programs.
Thou SHALT spend as much time in the library as you do in the mall or watching
television.3. Thou SHALT educate thy fellow man in the Laws of Science.
(back to top)
People are generally lazy and hold onto currently held false beliefs. This
condition is not acceptable to the ethical atheist. It is not good enough
to sit comfortably with your knowledge of the Universe and look in pity
at those who are still governed by lies, mythology and sensationalism. Scientific
education is the only way to prevail. Only by increasing the comprehension
of scientific truths can we hope to continue our progress past the Dark
Ages. Only if the world contains more educated people can we hope to not
have setbacks. Thou SHALT NOT sit silent and be a closet atheist. Thou SHALT
enlighten thy neighbor.4. Thou SHALT NOT forget the atrocities committed
in the name of god. (back to top)
Many people have limited knowledge, or none at all, of the atrocities committed
during the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc. by the Church and in the name
of religion. Christians are not unique in their cruelty. For example, Muslim
civilizations often imprison, torture or kill those attempting to convert
their citizens to Christianity. (See Atrocities in the Name of Religion
- coming soon...) Few are even remotely aware of these atrocities or think,
"Oh, that was a long time ago and could never happen again". However, it
hasn't been that long ago and is still occurring today in countries like
Bosnia, Rwanda, Burundi, Somalia, Israel, Tibet and Afghanistan. Thou SHALT
fear a repeat of history.5. Thou SHALT leave valuable contributions for
future generations. (back to top)
The nature of knowledge gain is that new truths are most often found by
building upon known facts. If every generation were required to start fresh
in its quest for knowledge, our progress would be severely impacted. Our
children will not have to go back and prove that the earth is not flat.
They will not have to rediscover the atom. It is important that our generation,
and all those that follow, leave scientific knowledge and resources for
our offspring to build upon. Write a book. Publish an article. Develop a
web site. Leave money to organizations that further science and education.
6. Thou SHALT live in peace with thy fellow man. (back to top)
This should not need stating, but murders, torture, wars and brutality are
ever present in all civilizations on earth and have been for all of recorded
history. Most of the large scale wars, as well as suicide bombers, are driven
by religious beliefs and the belief in an afterlife. Even though many religions
claim to be against killing, they promote that killing for god is divine
and will ensure a special status in the afterlife. If we didn't have these
widespread mythological beliefs, there would likely be a massive decrease
in the killings.7. Thou SHALT live this one life thou hast to its fullest.
(back to top)
We do not believe in an afterlife nor that we will be reincarnated to live
again in another form. It is, therefore, imperative that we live this one
life we have to its fullest. We should not live in a puritanical way, starving
ourselves of pleasures, in hopes that it somehow makes us better or that
we will be judged more favorably in our "next life". However, in living
our lives to the fullest, we must always be conscious of our actions to
ensure that they do not have adverse effects on our fellow man.8. Thou
SHALT follow a Personal Code of Ethics. (back to top)
Everyone should have their own personal code of ethics that drives their
behavior. What this contains is an individual undertaking, but current laws
are a good starting point. Many of the commandments of the Bible can be
summarized by this commandment. For example, it should be self-evident that
murder, lying and stealing should be avoided and honoring your mother and
father are necessary, assuming of course that they are worthy of this respect
(e.g. they are not beating/raping you or otherwise abusing you). In general,
a personal code of ethics would not cause harm to others, would be anchored
in truth and would strive to make society a better place.9. Thou SHALT
maintain a strict separation between Church and State. (back to top)
It is extremely dangerous to mix the mind controlling, fear generating,
mythological beliefs of religion with the governing aspects and power of
the state. History is full of examples. Many who founded the United States
knew this and were willing to die to escape the horrors of Europe. We know
that freedom can be measured by the separation of church and state.10.
Thou SHALT support those who follow these commandments. (back to top)
Get involved! Our progress in the last 250 years has been ard fought. Do
not sit idle and let us suffer setbacks. Religious conservatives are highly
organized and well funded. They continue to spread lies. They are trying
to rid our schools of teaching evolution. They are infiltrating government.
They are targeting our children's young, impressionable minds. We must support
those who follow these commandments in every way possible. Support scientific
and atheist organizations by submitting writings, donating money, etc. (donations
are often tax deductible). Purchase books and subscribe to magazines. Attend
seminars. All of these provide backing and support to continue valuable
efforts. Worthy organizations include (but are not limited to): Americans
United for Separation of Church and State, American Atheists, CSICOP - The
Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal and
the Skeptical Inquirer Magazine, The Skeptic's Annotated Bible, The Center
for Inquiry, EvolveFish, Online Library of Literature, your local library,
etc. (For more, see Links of the Ethical Atheist.)Listen - (15, crash,
10 commandments)


Another proposed set of the The Ten Commandments (see website)
From reader AL BLAZO (rants@wackedup.com)
Submitted January 2, 2004
No one of sound mind would dare claim that the world we live in today is
a better place because of the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments have
been with us for more than two millennia yet murder, cruelty, thievery,
racism, ethnic hatred and religious strife is just as much, if not more,
a part of our everyday lives as it ever was.
I believe that it's about time to scrap the Ten Commandments as we know
them and replace them with a new set of "rules" that may actually be useful
to us. Towards this end I have compiled a new set of commandments that hopefully
will have some value to mankind.
Let's make copies of these commandments and hang them in county courthouses
and public schools throughout the country. Maybe by the end of this millennia,
if we all strive to live with these new "commandments," we'll have reshaped
our social order into one worthy of honor and respect.
I. Thou shalt worship only reason
II. Thou shalt abstain from invoking deities in the affairs of man
III. Thou shalt disdain all ritual
IV. Thou shalt abhor priestliness
V. Thou shalt loathe superstition
VI. Thou shalt reject all forms of spiritualism and supernaturalism
VI. Thou shalt regard skepticism as a virtue
VIII. Thou shalt reject racism
IX. Thou shalt reject all claims to a moral authority greater than man 
X. Thou shalt, in word and action, strive to improve the human condition
Thank you Al for your contribution!
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 樓主| raninchrist 發表於 2007-4-2 13:12 | 只看該作者

回復 #65 iamcaibird 的帖子

哦?原來倫理無神論十戒的第一條是:
Local Access打往中國電話卡1.3¢/分種
good deal! 不過有神論的人也可以用吧?

首先,謝謝鳥兄的帖子,非常好,正對標題。可惜有的地方中文翻譯錯了,不知道是誰翻譯的?時間的關係,我沒時間看他的解釋,就從十誡入手,理解的不對,請指教。
很重要的一點,這裡大多條我相信很多基督徒也接受!例如:
1. Thou SHALT NOT believe all thou art told.
不要輕信
2. Thou SHALT seek knowledge and truth constantly.
不斷的追求知識和真理
3. Thou SHALT educate thy fellow man in the Laws of Science.
努力傳播科學知識和科學定律.
4. Thou SHALT NOT forget the atrocities committed in the name of god.
永不忘記人類以上帝的名對別人實施的殘暴行徑.
5. Thou SHALT leave valuable contributions for future generations.
要把有價值的貢獻留給後人.
6. Thou SHALT live in peace with thy fellow man.
要與所有人類和平相處.
7. Thou SHALT live this one life thou hast to its fullest.
要珍惜寶貴的今生,過好在世的每一天.
9. Thou SHALT maintain a strict separation between Church and State.
嚴格執行政教分離的基本原則.
10. Thou SHALT support those who follow these commandments.
堅決支持遵循以上法典的人們.

倫理無神論者副十戒:
II. Thou shalt abstain from invoking deities in the affairs of man
嚴禁拜人們編造的神靈
V. Thou shalt loathe superstition
堅決反對迷信活動.
VIII. Thou shalt reject racism
反對種族主義,種族歧視種族迫害.
X. Thou shalt, in word and action, strive to improve the human condition
言行一至為改善人類而奮鬥.

我簡直要說:「阿門」了!因為這些都與聖經的教導沒有衝突。
只有一條:
8. Thou SHALT follow a Personal Code of Ethics.
遵循人道倫理法典

這裡的"personal code"應該不是「人道」(humane),而是「個人性」論理。也就是說,一個人應該有自己認為對的一套倫理,但不應該有任何絕對的、讓所有人共同遵守的倫理。如果是這樣,我可以狠狠地打你一巴掌,然後說:「這是我表達友好的標誌!」

I. Thou shalt worship only reason
只許祭拜理智

我的老師說得好:「腳是用來走路的,如果你一定要脫了襪子來聞,必有不愉快的經歷。」
III. Thou shalt disdain all ritual
永不驕傲自大

中文應該是:「你要藐視所有的(宗教)儀式」。這和前面說的「保持人類和平」是否矛盾呢?
IV. Thou shalt abhor priestliness
堅決反對傳教活動
這裡的動詞是:「厭惡」,priestliness應該是「宗教特權」。這點,我基本也同意。教會牧師的權力只限在教會內部,屬靈的、有關聖經的。他在世俗社會中不應該有什麼特權。

VI. Thou shalt reject all forms of spiritualism and supernaturalism
堅決反對唯心主義和宗教迷信主義.
中文翻譯,我是同意的。但英文「spiritualism」不是唯心主義,而是相信屬靈的世界和存在。它的對立是唯物主義。真正的唯物主義者,我見到的還不多!

VI. Thou shalt regard skepticism as a virtue
以懷疑論的眼光看待一切並作為座右銘
基本上,我也同意。只是人如果用完全懷疑的眼光,他能活嗎?早上起來先懷疑:昨天睡下去的我是現在醒來的我嗎?我身邊睡的是我太太嗎?我的是在做夢或不是?我怎麼知道我的眼睛沒有騙我?我的手感覺的會不會出錯?在無法證明身邊睡的是我太太以後,我怎麼證明她在早餐里沒有下毒?。。。。

我擔保,你明天一定在瘋人院里看到這位「以懷疑論的眼光看待一切」的人!

IX. Thou shalt reject all claims to a moral authority greater than man 
拒絕任何自稱超人的道德權威.
I like Superman!   我再打您一巴掌,以表示「再見」

[ 本帖最後由 raninchrist 於 2007-4-2 13:44 編輯 ]
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同往錫安 發表於 2007-4-3 07:44 | 只看該作者
[quote]VI. Thou shalt regard skepticism as a virtue
以懷疑論的眼光看待一切並作為座右銘


基本上,我也同意。只是人如果用完全懷疑的眼光,他能活嗎?早上起來先懷疑:昨天睡下去的我是現在醒來的我嗎?我身邊睡的是我太太嗎?我的是在做夢或不是?我怎麼知道我的眼睛沒有騙我?我的手感覺的會不會出錯?在無法證明身邊睡的是我太太以後,我怎麼證明她在早餐里沒有下毒?。。。。

我擔保,你明天一定在瘋人院里看到這位「以懷疑論的眼光看待一切」的人![/quote]
To God in faith. To others in love.
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常常 發表於 2007-4-3 11:37 | 只看該作者

回復 #64 raninchrist 的帖子

摩西見到的又是哪一個?
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 樓主| raninchrist 發表於 2007-4-3 15:51 | 只看該作者

回復 #68 常常 的帖子

摩西與耶穌,這又是很好又很不容易回答的問題。

首先,摩西是公元前十四世紀的人,而耶穌在地上的時間是公元一世紀。二人相差一千三四百年(相當於唐朝到現在)。從一般人的角度想,要找出任何聯繫都是很困難的。但聖經是上帝的特殊啟示,卻不是從天上掉下來的一本書,它記載了上帝的救贖歷史,和上帝在歷史中循序漸進的啟示。福音真理的種子在伊甸園中已經埋下(創三15),但要經過許多時代、最後在「時期滿足」時,耶穌基督來帶世上、謙卑成人、死在十字架上、第三天復活、成就救贖大工。所以,摩西「見」耶穌的概念是很豐富的。

最好的解釋,摩西見耶穌可以按字面的意思。請比較出埃及記卅四章與馬太福音十七章。在出埃及記,摩西上西奈山重新領受上帝立約的話,因為以色列人已經因犯罪(造金牛偶像)毀約,連立約的憑據——兩塊刻有十誡約文石板——也被摩西砸碎了。到了山上,
耶和華在雲中降臨,和摩西一同站在那裡,宣告耶和華的名。  耶和華在他面前宣告說:「耶和華,耶和華,是有憐憫有恩典的神,不輕易發怒,並有豐盛的慈愛和誠實,  為千萬人存留慈愛,赦免罪孽、過犯,和罪惡,萬不以有罪的為無罪,必追討他的罪,自父及子,直到三、四代。」
(Exo 34:5-7)

這裡有個死結:既然上帝是慈愛的、赦免罪孽的,為什麼他又是有罪必討的公義的審判者?這兩者怎樣同在一處呢?(請耐心往下看)
之後上帝向摩西重新頒布了十誡,最後,
摩西手裡拿著兩塊法版下西乃山的時候,不知道自己的麵皮因耶和華和他說話就發了光。
(Exo 34:29)

從此,以色列人重新成為上帝的立約子民。而從此,摩西被稱為「與神面對面的先知(出埃及33:11)

馬太十七章的起因在十六章,耶穌對剛剛承認他是基督、神的兒子的門徒說:
人子要在他父的榮耀里同著眾使者降臨;那時候,他要照各人的行為報應各人。  我實在告訴你們,站在這裡的,有人在沒嘗死味以前必看見人子降臨在他的國里。」
(Mat 16:27-28)

耶穌預告他自己要把他國度的榮耀彰顯給門徒看。
過了六天,耶穌帶著彼得、雅各,和雅各的兄弟約翰,暗暗的上了高山,  就在他們面前變了形像,臉面明亮如日頭,衣裳潔白如光。  忽然,有摩西、以利亞向他們顯現,同耶穌說話。  彼得對耶穌說:「主啊,我們在這裡真好!你若願意,我就在這裡搭三座棚,一座為你,一座為摩西,一座為以利亞。」  說話之間,忽然有一朵光明的雲彩遮蓋他們,且有聲音從雲彩里出來,說:「這是我的愛子,我所喜悅的。你們要聽他!」  門徒聽見,就俯伏在地,極其害怕。
(Mat 17:1-6)

常先生,你的問題算回答了,這裡摩西的確見了耶穌,但別著急,更重要的。如果你比較兩個事件,雖然差了一千四百年,但有很多共同點:
1。摩西上西乃山,耶穌也上一座「高山」(這是一種很特別的用字:啟示錄21:10)
2。山上都有雲的環繞,上帝從雲中宣告
3。摩西上山因為以色列人犯罪毀約;耶穌之前(馬太十二章)被以色列人成為「鬼王」,而耶穌也宣布了那「不得赦免的罪」(12:32)
4。上帝對摩西宣布赦罪之恩同時又追討罪的公義;耶穌和摩西在山上談論耶穌上十字架的事(路加福音九31),上帝的慈愛和公義只有在十字架上得到了滿足:耶穌基督背負了所有屬他之人的罪,在罪人,因罪的赦免,十字架成為上帝的慈愛;對耶穌基督,因為他代替罪人,承擔了上帝公義的懲罰。這就是福音,簡單到兩歲兒童都可以明白,卻又是隱藏千年的奧秘!
5。耶穌基督面發光如太陽,摩西下山後,因得見上帝的榮光而面發光,連以色列人都不敢看。
6。摩西替以色列人接受了上帝的約,成為舊約的中保;而耶穌基督借著在十字架上的死,成為新約的中保。
7。從此以色列人成為上帝的子民;新約教會因著耶穌的救贖成為上帝的子民。

希伯來書三章,告訴我們,摩西在神家中盡忠不過是僕人,而耶穌基督是兒子。信他名的人,也一同成為上帝的兒女,享受永恆的生命,承受天上的產業。這福音的恩典是白白次給一切相信的人,上帝邀請你接受這好消息。不信的人,再也沒有其他得救的道路!

[ 本帖最後由 raninchrist 於 2007-4-4 09:31 編輯 ]
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同往錫安 發表於 2007-4-4 07:44 | 只看該作者
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