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[摘錄]美國國父論基督教

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來往加國 發表於 2014-9-2 10:24 | 只看該作者
求索 發表於 2014-8-31 06:26
基督徒不搗漿糊怎麼活呀!

你自己忽略了前提,我只是提醒你而已。

當一個子女對生養自己的父母如此態度的時候,如何進行之間的對話?
你們祈求,就給你們。尋找,就尋見。叩門,就給你們開門。
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 樓主| 求索 發表於 2014-9-2 11:58 | 只看該作者
來往加國 發表於 2014-9-2 10:24
你自己忽略了前提,我只是提醒你而已。

當一個子女對生養自己的父母如此態度的時候,如何進行之間的對話 ...

在你的比喻中, 誰是父母? 神? 太可笑了吧? 2000多年來, 神說過一個字嗎? 不都是人打著神的旗號?
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
——Martin Luther King, Jr.
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催肥 發表於 2014-9-2 16:31 | 只看該作者
來往加國 發表於 2014-8-29 19:05
在愛里沒有懼怕。

那麼你認為世界需要公義嗎?當遇到強盜搶錢甚至殺人的時候,你有什麼反應? ...

有本事你直接回答問題

都是老人了,老耍嘴皮子有什麼好玩的?

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催肥 發表於 2014-9-2 16:34 | 只看該作者
來往加國 發表於 2014-9-1 21:24
你自己忽略了前提,我只是提醒你而已。

當一個子女對生養自己的父母如此態度的時候,如何進行之間的對話 ...

難道你每次說話前,先要把令尊令堂戀愛結婚的光輝事迹都不厭其煩地說一遍才開口?

我看你也沒做到嘛!

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拎不清 發表於 2014-9-3 02:47 | 只看該作者
回到樓主的問題,病毒也是神造的。連撒但魔鬼都造了,病毒那更不在話下了。
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催肥 發表於 2014-9-3 06:03 | 只看該作者
拎不清 發表於 2014-9-2 13:47
回到樓主的問題,病毒也是神造的。連撒但魔鬼都造了,病毒那更不在話下了。 ...

有聖經依據嗎?

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拎不清 發表於 2014-9-3 08:32 | 只看該作者
催肥 發表於 2014-9-3 06:03
有聖經依據嗎?

伯 1:6 有一天,神的眾子來侍立在耶和華面前,撒但也來在其中。

撒但是神的兒子,當是神造的的天使不是很明確的嗎?神先造了天使后造了人。撒但的任務就是監察人的天使長。所以·人最恨他,把一切地罪都·歸給撒但,人也就無罪了。看約伯記就知道了。
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來往加國 發表於 2014-9-3 08:47 | 只看該作者
求索 發表於 2014-9-2 11:58
在你的比喻中, 誰是父母? 神? 太可笑了吧? 2000多年來, 神說過一個字嗎? 不都是人打著神的旗號? ...

既然是神造萬物,當然包括神造人。你的標題也可以這樣詮釋:神造的人在質疑神是否造了病毒,對嗎?
你們祈求,就給你們。尋找,就尋見。叩門,就給你們開門。
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 樓主| 求索 發表於 2014-9-3 21:42 | 只看該作者

歷史中的耶穌?

Yahoo 對耶穌基督的存在提出疑問。

這裡

America has a curious fixation on the perspectives of Jesus Christ in the formation of public opinion, especially on prominent issues of social values. In recent days, protesters have taken to defending opposing moral positions by claiming Jesus held their viewpoint. Aside from the obvious problem of using a single historical figure as a moral barometer, there's another troubling issue at hand: Folks are arguing about the opinions of an ancient person without stopping to verify his existence.

Allow me to explain. I'm not explicitly arguing there couldn't have existed a man named Jesus who had a handful of followers, although that isn't outside the realm of possibility. But the Jesus of Christianity presents some challenges in being understood as a literal figure within history.

Let's begin with the largest problem: There does not exist a singular Jesus of the Bible. Each of the Gospels (and for the matter the writings of Paul) present a portrait of Jesus that disagrees with the others on basic facts, starting with the circumstances of his own birth.

When was he born? That's a trickier question than it should be. Grab a bible and read along. According to Luke, that would be during the first census of Israel by Quirinius, governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). According to Matthew, that would be during the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1). The problem? Quirinius' census  got underway in 6 CE. Herod had been dead for a good decade. Apologists occasionally try to wiggle their way out of this one by manipulating the text. But serious scholars, including believers, acknowledge the discrepancy.

Let's check out the resurrection of Jesus. The oldest Gospel, Mark, does not say that Jesus resurrected at all in its original form. The resurrection was added at a later date. Most bibles even footnote within the text that the resurrection portion does not appear in the "earliest manuscripts." My childhood bible, an Evangelical-approved NIV translation, actually drew a line dividing the portion from the rest of the text.

All four Gospels do reference an empty tomb. But not a single one agrees with the others on who actually saw it (Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 23-4, John 20). Mary is either alone, with another Mary, also with Salome or maybe with Joanna too? It seems we're dealing with an unreliable narrator.

We've established that no one really has a clue what year Jesus was born or who exactly discovered his supposedly empty tomb after he died, assuming anyone did at all. But surely everyone can agree on his ascent to Heaven, right? It was a rather fantastical public display.

Unfortunately, the Gospels can't even agree on this. In Luke, his ascension occurs in Bethany the day he resurrected (Luke 24). In Acts, a canonical book of the New Testament, he ascends from Mount Olives forty days after resurrecting (Acts 1). Oh, well.

While all of these discrepancies are highly problematic, at least Jesus remains a figure of consistent character throughout the Gospels. Or not . The character has an ethical sensibility that could be described as "confused" at best.

None of the contradictions by anonymous Gospel writers negate the existence of Jesus. However, since no coherent vision of his life exists, it doesn't seem all that important whether he lived or not. But let's press on for curiosity's sake.

What about the historical evidence for Jesus? We'll check in with New Testament scholar and James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Bart Ehrman. I bet he can clear this up.


There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references - nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death - even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era - there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time - the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus' name ever so much as mentioned." (pp 56-57 of Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium)



Many Christian scholars will scoff at the preceding paragraph. But the outside arguments they offer in favor of Jesus' existence, from Flavius Josephus to later figures like Tacitus, cl and Justin Martyr, all disintegrate upon close examination. Dan Barker gives a strong argument against their proposed "evidences" of Jesus' existence in his excellent book Godless.

I could go on for hundreds of pages about the contradictions and historical problems of the Jesus narrative. But it's quite unnecessary. The Jesus of Christianity is clearly a mythological figure. He's not even an original.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
——Martin Luther King, Jr.
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 樓主| 求索 發表於 2014-9-3 21:46 | 只看該作者
拎不清 發表於 2014-9-3 02:47
回到樓主的問題,病毒也是神造的。連撒但魔鬼都造了,病毒那更不在話下了。 ...

神造Ebola 是出於對人類的愛嗎?
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
——Martin Luther King, Jr.
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 樓主| 求索 發表於 2014-9-3 21:47 | 只看該作者
來往加國 發表於 2014-9-3 08:47
既然是神造萬物,當然包括神造人。你的標題也可以這樣詮釋:神造的人在質疑神是否造了病毒,對嗎? ...

不要轉移話題。 你是否認為神造了Ebola, 為什麼?
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
——Martin Luther King, Jr.
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拎不清 發表於 2014-9-4 01:19 | 只看該作者
求索 發表於 2014-9-3 21:46
神造Ebola 是出於對人類的愛嗎?

有愛就有恨。死了一個惡人是對其它人的愛,對惡人的恨。死了個善人是對惡的愛對善的恨。不過善惡如何分,那就是各說各的了。
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 樓主| 求索 發表於 2014-9-4 02:44 | 只看該作者
拎不清 發表於 2014-9-4 01:19
有愛就有恨。死了一個惡人是對其它人的愛,對惡人的恨。死了個善人是對惡的愛對善的恨。不過善惡如何分, ...

神愛世人,善人惡人一起愛。 是神是非不分, 還是神不愛世人, 還是人沒有善惡之分?
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
——Martin Luther King, Jr.
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拎不清 發表於 2014-9-4 04:48 | 只看該作者
求索 發表於 2014-9-4 02:44
神愛世人,善人惡人一起愛。 是神是非不分, 還是神不愛世人, 還是人沒有善惡之分? ...

神怎能愛世人呢?不是都判了死刑了嗎?一生勞苦,還那來的福。人是苦到死啊。難道這不是神說的,不是神的命令?聖經就是這樣亂,但不得真。就一個光,一會是造的,一會兒是自有的。然後是人來說:這光是什麼光,那光是什麼光。人成了神了。也不想想神那裡說過這些東西。這些說的人把神當什麼了?
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 樓主| 求索 發表於 2014-9-4 05:48 | 只看該作者
拎不清 發表於 2014-9-4 04:48
神怎能愛世人呢?不是都判了死刑了嗎?一生勞苦,還那來的福。人是苦到死啊。難道這不是神說的,不是神的 ...

這些說的人把神當什麼了? 但成被他們造的, 然後說他們自己是被造的。 一回說自己是爹, 一回說自己是兒子。 這就是典型的基督徒邏輯
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
——Martin Luther King, Jr.
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hellman 發表於 2014-9-4 08:06 | 只看該作者
哈哈哈哈,當然是神造了病毒懲罰不信的人們或者管教信的不夠堅定的基督徒,懲罰奉獻少的人,。。。。。
反正解釋權在教會牧師,出了教會解釋權就在於每個基督徒了,想說什麼說什麼,想怎麼理解就怎麼理解,全都是神的旨意。
在非基面前道貌岸然,以神自居。。。。。。。
聖經:代下15:13 凡不尋求耶和華以色列神的,無論大小,男女,必被治死.
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 樓主| 求索 發表於 2014-9-4 22:44 | 只看該作者
hellman 發表於 2014-9-4 08:06
哈哈哈哈,當然是神造了病毒懲罰不信的人們或者管教信的不夠堅定的基督徒,懲罰奉獻少的人,。。。。。
反 ...

基督徒每一個敢承認病毒是神造的。 因為病毒只害人, 不救人。 神愛世人的謊言就戳破了!
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
——Martin Luther King, Jr.
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 樓主| 求索 發表於 2014-9-4 22:47 | 只看該作者

耶穌真有其人嗎?

歷史中的耶穌?
Yahoo 對耶穌基督的存在提出疑問。



America has a curious fixation on the perspectives of Jesus Christ in the formation of public opinion, especially on prominent issues of social values. In recent days, protesters have taken to defending opposing moral positions by claiming Jesus held their viewpoint. Aside from the obvious problem of using a single historical figure as a moral barometer, there's another troubling issue at hand: Folks are arguing about the opinions of an ancient person without stopping to verify his existence.

Allow me to explain. I'm not explicitly arguing there couldn't have existed a man named Jesus who had a handful of followers, although that isn't outside the realm of possibility. But the Jesus of Christianity presents some challenges in being understood as a literal figure within history.

Let's begin with the largest problem: There does not exist a singular Jesus of the Bible. Each of the Gospels (and for the matter the writings of Paul) present a portrait of Jesus that disagrees with the others on basic facts, starting with the circumstances of his own birth.

When was he born? That's a trickier question than it should be. Grab a bible and read along. According to Luke, that would be during the first census of Israel by Quirinius, governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). According to Matthew, that would be during the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1). The problem? Quirinius' census  got underway in 6 CE. Herod had been dead for a good decade. Apologists occasionally try to wiggle their way out of this one by manipulating the text. But serious scholars, including believers, acknowledge the discrepancy.

Let's check out the resurrection of Jesus. The oldest Gospel, Mark, does not say that Jesus resurrected at all in its original form. The resurrection was added at a later date. Most bibles even footnote within the text that the resurrection portion does not appear in the "earliest manuscripts." My childhood bible, an Evangelical-approved NIV translation, actually drew a line dividing the portion from the rest of the text.

All four Gospels do reference an empty tomb. But not a single one agrees with the others on who actually saw it (Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 23-4, John 20). Mary is either alone, with another Mary, also with Salome or maybe with Joanna too? It seems we're dealing with an unreliable narrator.

We've established that no one really has a clue what year Jesus was born or who exactly discovered his supposedly empty tomb after he died, assuming anyone did at all. But surely everyone can agree on his ascent to Heaven, right? It was a rather fantastical public display.

Unfortunately, the Gospels can't even agree on this. In Luke, his ascension occurs in Bethany the day he resurrected (Luke 24). In Acts, a canonical book of the New Testament, he ascends from Mount Olives forty days after resurrecting (Acts 1). Oh, well.

While all of these discrepancies are highly problematic, at least Jesus remains a figure of consistent character throughout the Gospels. Or not . The character has an ethical sensibility that could be described as "confused" at best.

None of the contradictions by anonymous Gospel writers negate the existence of Jesus. However, since no coherent vision of his life exists, it doesn't seem all that important whether he lived or not. But let's press on for curiosity's sake.

What about the historical evidence for Jesus? We'll check in with New Testament scholar and James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina, Bart Ehrman. I bet he can clear this up.


There are no birth records, no trial transcripts, no death certificates; there are no expressions of interest, no heated slanders, no passing references - nothing. In fact, if we broaden our field of concern to the years after his death - even if we include the entire first century of the Common Era - there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind. I should stress that we do have a large number of documents from the time - the writings of poets, philosophers, historians, scientists, and government officials, for example, not to mention the large collection of surviving inscriptions on stone and private letters and legal documents on papyrus. In none of this vast array of surviving writings is Jesus' name ever so much as mentioned." (pp 56-57 of Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium)



Many Christian scholars will scoff at the preceding paragraph. But the outside arguments they offer in favor of Jesus' existence, from Flavius Josephus to later figures like Tacitus, cl and Justin Martyr, all disintegrate upon close examination. Dan Barker gives a strong argument against their proposed "evidences" of Jesus' existence in his excellent book Godless.

I could go on for hundreds of pages about the contradictions and historical problems of the Jesus narrative. But it's quite unnecessary. The Jesus of Christianity is clearly a mythological figure. He's not even an original.

Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
——Martin Luther King, Jr.
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 樓主| 求索 發表於 2014-9-6 06:11 | 只看該作者
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
——Martin Luther King, Jr.
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hellman 發表於 2014-9-6 23:00 | 只看該作者
有聲有色有圖有視頻, 必須相信。 耶穌救了他們, 不過耶穌也可以讓車停下來。
聖經:代下15:13 凡不尋求耶和華以色列神的,無論大小,男女,必被治死.
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