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耶穌為誰而死?

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·八戒· 發表於 2011-2-7 21:43 | 只看該作者
研究 發表於 2011-2-6 20:25
你把結果當成了原因。一個人要跳河,有人把他救上岸,可他轉身又跳下去,是別人不救他,還是他自己定意要 ...

這話用在你們自己身上是再恰當不過啦。 這裡這麼多人給你們指出你們「解經」的謬誤,一再的拉你們上來,可你們卻一再的「往水裡跳」,自取死不可活也

聖經上明文規定耶和華是獨一的神,你們不可拜別的神,可你們偏要再豎一個神,還居然和耶和華一體,還要拜他,你們離死期不遠啦。
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livingspring 發表於 2011-2-8 00:29 | 只看該作者
In John 3:16
"神愛世人,甚至將祂的獨生子賜給他們,叫一切信入祂的,不至滅亡,反得永遠的生命。"
In this verse, "世人" (world) means:
世人,原文與世界同字,指犯罪墮落而構成世界的人,不只有罪,且有古蛇魔鬼的毒素,成為他的蛇類,需要基督以蛇形替他們死,為他們受神審判,(14,)否則他們就必滅亡。(16。)世人雖這樣墮落,但因他們是神照自己的形像,為盛裝祂而造的器皿,(創一26,羅九21上,23,)神仍然以祂神聖的愛,就是祂自己,(約壹四8,16,)極其的愛他們,甚至將祂的獨生子(就是祂的彰顯)賜給他們,好叫他們得著祂永遠的生命,成為祂的眾子,作祂團體的彰顯,以完成祂新約永遠的經綸。因此,神就先藉著祂的靈重生他們,(3~6,)叫他們有祂永遠的生命,(15~16,36上,)再用祂無限量的靈充滿他們,(34,)使他們成為祂那在萬有之上,包羅萬有之基督(31~35)的新婦,作祂的擴增和豐滿。(28~30。)
It is very clear that God loves everyone, not only His believers. In fact, none of us believers was born a believer of God. Before we became believers, we were ALL God's enemies. But God loves us, no matter what. Isn't that because of His love that we became his believers? I don't know why you are still arguing about his point.

In 1 Timothy 2:4, the Bible says "祂願意萬人得救,並且完全認識真理;"
As a believer, we have to learn to know the truth and labor on the words of God. Otherwise, we will always be unclear about the truth and we will never know God. For those of you who want to be so-called Bible teacher, you especially need to be clear about the truth. Otherwise, when you teach people it is going to be "The blind leads the blind". How can you know the truth? You need to come to your spirit. Unfortunately many of you even did not know the difference between soul and the spirit, or did not know that soul and spirit are two different organs. This explains well the reason why you are not clear about the truth.

"拎兄的這個思考和研究弟兄的思考可以說是兩個極端。一個觀點是對所有都有效;一個觀點是對所有人都無效。"

What Jesus came to this earth and went through all the process for? Just for a few number of people who will believe into Him? No, he came here for everyone, for the whole world. People who think that the Lord died on the cross just for a few number of people did not realize that He came here for the sinners. This includes all of us, saved ones of not yet saved ones, and all those who refuse His salvation. Many people refuse God's salvation. This does not mean that God did not prepare the salvation for them. When I cooked for 50 people and invited all the 50 people to dinner, 30 of them refuse to come and eat. Does this mean that I did not prepare food for them? No. Yes, they did not get the food, just as they will not received the salvation from God, because they refuse to come and take it. That is why the Lord's death has nothing to do with them. The Lord died for all and His death has effect on anyone who receives Him.
As for the destiny of the Israelites, they are God's chosen people, they will not perish like other non believers, but they will not have God's divine life, either, if they don't believe into the Lord Jesus. READ THE BIBLE CAREFULLY and COMPLETELY, you will know that believers will not go to heaven as most of you may think. The destiny of believers is the New Jerusalem. It will come from heaven to the earth. Believers will live with the Lord in this city to the kings and priests to serve God. None believers, including both Israelites and gentiles (yes some gentiles will not die either, read the Revelation) will be the residents of the nations outside the New Jerusalem. They don't have the divine life of God, even though they won't die, but they will sick. The leaves of the tree of life will cure them.
Revelation 22:2 "在河這邊與那邊有生命樹,生產十二樣果子,每月都結出果子,樹上的葉子乃為醫治萬民。"

"但新約反覆強調行為比信心更重要,你為何充耳不聞?"
The Bible says something about acts and faith, but it is not correct to think act is more important than faith. One of the most important truths recovered by Martin Luther is Justification by Faith, not be acts. We are saved from the eternal punishment in the lake of fire is not because we did something good. It is because we received the faith which is the Lord Jesus. There are many verses in the Bible.
As for the act, it is important when it comes to reward and punishment. Christians will be judged first when the 3.5 year great tribulation is over. Those who have not prepared their wedding garment will not enter into the Lord's wedding feast in the millennium. They will be sent outside to weep in the darkness for 1000 years. They will be mature in life and will step into the New Jerusalem with all the believers.
James had a lot concepts of the Old Testament. This is clearly shown in the recording in Acts. His letter was selected into the Bible for a purpose, so that the Bible is balanced. Faith is most important, but we can not overlook our acts, either. Don』t think our good acts have anything to do in our salvation. After we received the Lord as our divine life, our life needs to change. The Lord will gain us more and more, eventually He will fill us up and even over flows through us. Our act is only the results of the growth of this divine life in us.

This forum may be started for a good purpose. Somehow I failed to see this purpose is served. When we speak, we need to make sure we speak from our spirit. John 4:24 says:"神是靈;敬拜祂的,必須在靈和真實裡敬拜。」If we don't come to our spirits, how can we have true worship of God?

Please forgive me if I do not come back to answer any of your questions.
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·八戒· 發表於 2011-2-8 00:40 | 只看該作者
livingspring 發表於 2011-2-8 00:29
In John 3:16
"神愛世人,甚至將祂的獨生子賜給他們,叫一切信入祂的,不至滅亡,反得永遠的生命。"
In  ...

這一段俺已經講過多次,那是作為猶太人拉比的耶穌對半夜來訪的猶太人說的話。沒錯,原文是「神愛世界」,而不是「神愛世人」。一字之差的翻譯使得意思全不一樣。耶穌所講乃是猶太人信上帝的不至滅亡,反得永生,根本和「世人」無關。基督教把世界翻譯成世人,讓人「聯想」到後半句講的是全世界的人都可以有這份,純粹是誤導。
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BenAl 發表於 2011-2-8 00:59 | 只看該作者
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這個主貼莫名其妙,那耶蘇明明沒死,不過是表演了一番,你們在這兒討論他為什麼死,不是吃多了撐的嗎?他可能要加禍於你們了,呵呵
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拎不清 發表於 2011-2-8 02:40 | 只看該作者
耶穌三年多的傳道就是到了撒瑪利亞幾天,也是和信耶和華的以色列民在一起。從沒有到過外幫人家裡去,怎麼和中國人,印地安人。。。拉上關係了。他的幾個徒弟被猶太人也就是他們自已人害得沒辦法逃出來,到被他們稱為狗的地方討狗食。怎麼另起爐灶了。改包裝了。
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livingspring 發表於 2011-2-8 04:57 | 只看該作者
回復 ·八戒· 23樓 的帖子

"World including everything and everyone. Believe it or not, you are also part of the world. God loves you, too. Unfortunately His salvation has nothing to do with you yet at this moment because, apprently you have chosen not to recieve Him. God never forces anyone, instead, He gave each of us a free will to choose. Even though, it is going to be a small group, but with this small group of believers, He will defeat Satan, His enemy and the king of this age.
Matthew 7:13-14
"你們要進窄門;因為引到毀壞的,那門寬,那路闊,進去的人也多; 引到生命的,那門窄,那路狹,找著的人也少."

May I ask you if you are a Christian? If you are or if you want to be, then you need to get out of your mind and get into your spirit and work on the words of God. God will not reveal the meaning of His words to people who are strong minded. If you are not a Christian and did not come here to seek God, then I would suggest you spend more time praying to the Lord to open your eyes so that you will see.
Regarding the salvation to those who are not Israelites by birth, God has preapared His salvation for us, too. When he promised Abraham the good land, He also promised Abraham to be the father of many nations, not just one nation of Israel. Do you know what Israel means? It means the prince of God. Today by faith, we are the true Israelites, the sons of God. Isn't that wonderful!
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livingspring 發表於 2011-2-8 05:04 | 只看該作者
回復 ·八戒· 23樓 的帖子

As a Son of Man, the Lord Jesus died. He went to Hades for three days like every human who died. Death is strong and it imprisons all the people who died. Satan was also happy when Jesus died. But there was something he did not know, apparently you did not know, either, that Jesus Christ, Who is the Lord of earth and heavens, has the life of resurrection. In fact, He IS the resurrection Himself. Death could not imprison Him. He died and resurrected. Not only that, He also ascended to the hevens and then descended as a life-giving Spirit. Today, anyone who received Him will also has His divine life that no one can imprison. You may not believe today, but one day you will and you will believe, but I hope that day is going to be someday before your natural life is over.
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·八戒· 發表於 2011-2-8 05:06 | 只看該作者
livingspring 發表於 2011-2-8 04:57
回復 ·八戒· 23樓 的帖子

"World including everything and everyone. Believe it or not, you are also ...

別打岔,世界是包括人和所有的東西,但是,在這句話中,如果用原文,那麼後面的半句就很清楚的是只對以色列人說的,而不是「世人」。基督教之所以故意把它翻譯錯,不是筆誤,而是故意這樣,使得後半句讓人以為耶穌要救「世人」,這就叫誤導。

聯繫諾亞洪水你就知道,神根本就不愛世人。
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livingspring 發表於 2011-2-8 05:09 | 只看該作者
回復 拎不清 25樓 的帖子

Your name is like your person. NOT clear. Before you speak again, I will suggest to you read at least the 4 books of gospel.
You always show up in the forum and likes to air your opinions. What for? You are smart and have opinions on every subjects, but you should know that the Lord said that He will hide the truth to those smart ones.
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·八戒· 發表於 2011-2-8 05:09 | 只看該作者
livingspring 發表於 2011-2-8 05:04
回復 ·八戒· 23樓 的帖子

As a Son of Man, the Lord Jesus died. He went to Hades for three days lik ...

可惜,耶穌是猶太人的拉比,也只是「尋找以色列家迷失的羊」。和你無關。
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hellman 發表於 2011-2-8 07:26 | 只看該作者
青貝殼 發表於 2011-2-7 06:57
但新約反覆強調行為比信心更重要,你為何充耳不聞?

羅2:13 原來在 神面前,不是聽律法的為義,乃是 ...

現代教會把聖經和神的意思完全歪曲,為了拉信徒,把上天堂說的那麼容易-只要信了
就萬事大吉了. 完全不怕耶穌的審判,這樣的教會就是耶穌說的,"敵基督要以我的名
來". 看來世界末日真的要來了. 這麼多歪曲聖經,違背耶穌的假傳道者.
聖經:代下15:13 凡不尋求耶和華以色列神的,無論大小,男女,必被治死.
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拎不清 發表於 2011-2-8 09:59 | 只看該作者
回復 livingspring 29樓 的帖子

你很清楚什麼?很自得是不是,你還是向亞當學學,光屁股在神面前晃來晃去的。
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青貝殼 發表於 2011-2-8 14:42 | 只看該作者
拎不清 發表於 2011-2-8 09:59
回復 livingspring 29樓 的帖子

你很清楚什麼?很自得是不是,你還是向亞當學學,光屁股在神面前晃來晃去的 ...

在天體營里......
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追求永生 發表於 2011-2-8 16:18 | 只看該作者
本帖最後由 追求永生 於 2011-2-8 03:33 編輯
·八戒· 發表於 2011-2-7 08:43
這話用在你們自己身上是再恰當不過啦。 這裡這麼多人給你們指出你們「解經」的謬誤,一再的拉你們上來 ...


八戒兄又老調重彈了,新年也沒有點新氣象。

八戒老兄如果想信猶太教,建議你和伊蘇兄接洽,看看你是否和他們的理解一致。

至於三位一體,是基督教信仰的核心,你如果有願望討論的話,不能總是動輒就把反對這樣的信仰核心當作你的論點論據,偶然為之我們可以給你解釋,長此以往,就說不過去了。

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追求永生 發表於 2011-2-8 16:24 | 只看該作者
livingspring 發表於 2011-2-7 11:29
In John 3:16
"神愛世人,甚至將祂的獨生子賜給他們,叫一切信入祂的,不至滅亡,反得永遠的生命。"
In  ...

弟兄相信普救論嗎?
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追求永生 發表於 2011-2-8 16:30 | 只看該作者
本帖最後由 追求永生 於 2011-2-8 03:31 編輯
·八戒· 發表於 2011-2-7 11:40
這一段俺已經講過多次,那是作為猶太人拉比的耶穌對半夜來訪的猶太人說的話。沒錯,原文是「神愛世界」, ...


別管世界還是世人,都是神的創造,都是神愛的對象,這裡根本就沒有本質的區別。

籠統地說愛,是沒有錯的。但是研究弟兄這裡說的是神的救贖,是一種施予特殊救恩恩典的愛,而贖罪是這個救恩恩典的一環。

這樣,實際是在討論兩個不同的範疇。神學就是幫助大家做一些具體的分析的。

對神學持否定和消極的態度,就是和整天吃飯的人反對營養學家一樣。
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追求永生 發表於 2011-2-8 16:38 | 只看該作者
·八戒· 發表於 2011-2-7 16:09
可惜,耶穌是猶太人的拉比,也只是「尋找以色列家迷失的羊」。和你無關。

耶穌是救主和生命的主人,是天國的君王,是整個世界的創造者和所有者,這不是任何人所能否認的。基督徒認耶穌為主,是一切好行為,恢復正常創造秩序的開端,八戒兄如果總是站在外面看熱鬧,是永遠不會理解這個立場的。
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青貝殼 發表於 2011-2-8 17:01 | 只看該作者
追求永生 發表於 2011-2-8 16:38
耶穌是救主和生命的主人,是天國的君王,是整個世界的創造者和所有者,這不是任何人所能否認的。基督徒認 ...

耶穌是救主和生命的主人,是天國的君王,是整個世界的創造者和所有者,這不是任何人所能否認的。

24:36但那日子,那時辰,沒有人知道,連天上的使者也不知道,子也不知道,惟獨父知道

哥林多前書
15:24再后末期到了,那時,基督既將一切執政的,掌權的,有能的,都毀滅了,就把國交與父神

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追求永生 發表於 2011-2-8 17:17 | 只看該作者
青貝殼 發表於 2011-2-8 04:01
耶穌是救主和生命的主人,是天國的君王,是整個世界的創造者和所有者,這不是任何人所能否認的。

24:3 ...

貝兄連耶穌是天國的唯一繼承人這個概念和不熟悉嗎?

太 28:18 耶 穌 進 前 來 , 對 他 們 說 , 天 上 , 地 下 所 有 的 權 柄 , 都 賜 給 我 了 。  
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·八戒· 發表於 2011-2-8 21:30 | 只看該作者
追求永生 發表於 2011-2-8 16:18
八戒兄又老調重彈了,新年也沒有點新氣象。

八戒老兄如果想信猶太教,建議你和伊蘇兄接洽,看看你是 ...

關鍵就是你的「信仰核心」根本就是「死亡陷阱」

聖經明確說了,耶和華是獨一的神,拜耶和華以外的神的必死無疑。
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