My view of truth and meaning of life: an attempt to embrace the difference

i'm feeling clumsy to share with you all my thought since I cannot use English as freely as you. Besides, all the terms being discussed here are just hard to translated into Chinse. if i talk to you in Chinese, I don't think it's accurate and decent too.

I got to say, during the path each one is "allowing" the truth/God to change him/herself, it is almost impossible to copy this same process to another, though they may be very similar. And once again I will agree with you on almost all your points above. Except,

Did you ever think about this: the meaning of life may not be "your" happiness?

Again, just my personal idea. welcome to share.

If believing that will bring beneficial outcomes -- one becomes more loving kindness, more understanding, more peaceful, happier, more content, more accepting and tolerant -- then you hit the jackpot

真理不是瞎子摸象.與神隔絕的人，尋求真理就象瞎子摸象。瞎子摸象很形象地描會出每一個人都有可能知道一部分真相，但不可能是全部。瞎子摸象也警戒我們不能以自己的判斷作為檢驗真理的標準。

我想既然：

１。我們不是真理。===我們不能把自己的感受，經驗當作判斷真理的標準。真理的確可以給我們帶來各樣的益處，但我們不能說使我們開心，愉悅的就一定是真理。犯罪有時也讓人產生快樂，但當然不是真理。

２。我們的本性已經敗壞。===這更說明我們不能憑自己的標準來界定真理是什麼。

問題就在於：如何獲得真理。基督教的觀點與邏輯是這樣的：

所有人都與神隔絕了，經上是用「死在過犯中」來描述這樣的光景，即我們的靈不認識誰是真神。我們屬靈的眼睛瞎了。一句話說：我們沒有能力靠自己認識真神，除非他使我們從死里復活。

基督教不是轉變，而是重生（被神再生一次。）那是出死入生，這是神大能的彰顯。

你也許會留意到我把真神與真理等同看待。

神是真理，神的普遍恩典使人們得以通過科學的方法等來尋求物質界的規律，真相；所以，我們一點不miao視科學的發現，因為我們相信那是出於真理的靈的啟發。但是，關於人的生命，人的意義，人如何脫離苦難與罪，則是人無法自己解決的，因為我們陷於罪中，除非神親自啟示我們通過什麼方式與他重歸於好。

聖經就是神關於神，人，神對人的旨意的特殊啟示。

Hey Buffer -- If you think chinese would be a better language for you to express your idea, you are welcome to do so -- I think for the reading part, my Chinese is still alright. Please don' get me wrong that I am thinking your English is not perfect; frankly speaking I think you have done quite a good job, and I do understand the overall idea you wanted to point out. You are asking whether the meaning of life can be "my" happiness -- before I answer this question, I probably would like to know what actually brought you up to asking this question?
I am speaking from a very layman and general tone -- the meaning of life is "generally" placed in search of happiness. Happiness in this sense can mean a lot of things,  -- finding the meaning of things is also a happy thing -- do you agree? And apparently when we are complaining about what is the meaning of life -- the feeling is literally not a happy one. So, happiness -- contentment -- whatever labels -- I put it as something that "our instincts" are chasing after all the time.
You mentioned of "experience for the Divine" may be very individual -- not similar -- very unique among each and every single human -- the so-called "personal relationship with God".  Putting aside the concepts and doctrines, I totally agree with you that everyone is unique in his/her experience with this respect.  And apparently, if God/Divine really exists, He probably "allows" this to happen -- look at the many interpretations and assertions of the believers/people about similar topics. Although the general Christian's point of view about Truth is quite narrowly "specific" -- always back to the words of Bible.  What I wish people to think about, and many Christians would agree as well, is that the words of Bible are originally "created" by God to be "understood" by His people -- but because of human limitation, time factors, translation problems, matters like God is infinite while humans are not able to grasp what his true meaning is -- the revealation through the Bibble may not be as straightforward as in the original words. This is why Christians are always saying the only way to understand the Bible is through building a relationship with Him. This relationship is so personal that, to a very extent, deciples tend to have their own interpretations of what Bible message is. From this.. we perhaps need to recognize if there is God who creates such a complex universe and human intelligence -- He probably is quite diversified in nature and sending his messages.  

I wanted to say in Buddhism/advaita traditions, this happiness as the meaning of life may be more appropriately placed by "ceasation of suffering". Because in their perspective, happiness can never go without suffering; by knowing what is sufering, one will understand the happiness, and remain in freedom and in "middle-way" whenever experiencing this relativity nature.

Thanks for the unrelentness. I hope you can understand what I wanted to say about relative truth and ultimate truth; apparently the standards that you took on from your own Biblical knowledge to interpret as Truth may literally be your own "subjective truth".  The main reason I do not want to discuss about "truth" is that it will never be able to come to a consensus. And believe me, no one here will be able to say he/she has got the Only truth without being questioned whether he/she is not "deluded", and without even having a slight of feeling that he/she may offend the God up there who is watching him from not making mistakes. Thanks for your inputs, and I am very sure I receive your message.

This relationship is so personal that, to a very extent, deciples tend to have their own interpretations of what Bible message is

我們不可能百分百完全掌握神在聖經中的啟示，但神對他自己的教會，他的話語是保守的。教會通過信經，信條，保證我們在基本的真理上儘可能地接近真理，聖靈是真理的靈，他有這樣的能力做到這一點。儘管聖靈引賜給每一個信徒，但我們仍要努力避免私意解經。所以神要我們不可停止聚會，神在教會賜我們教師，牧師等使我們更好地明白，理解真理。

From this.. we perhaps need to recognize if there is God who creates such a complex universe and human intelligence -- He probably is quite diversified in nature and sending his messages.  

我想好象不能因為信徒需要與主建立親密關係，從而更好明白神的心意，而必然推出神會通過其它的方式去啟示不同的人。

首先與主建立親密關係離不開聖經，因為聖經是神自己的話語，我們只能從聖經中來得知主是怎樣的一位主，神通過聖經向我們說話，而不是別的。

其次，就算某人宣稱主跟他說了什麼，也得拿著聖經來對照一下。因為神的啟示已經完畢。聖經包含了神要我們知道的所有關於得救的知識，關於他自己的知識，並於世界末日的知識。

也就是說神會通過其它方式啟示不同的人，只是一種猜測，是沒有依據支持的。而神通過聖經向人啟示，神的啟示已經完畢是聖經本身教導的。

I wonder why I don't get responses from the many nonchristians/anti-christians here.

謝謝你的試圖理解。我很欣賞你這樣的態度。 很難有你這樣好的態度與忍耐。如果我太直接，請你多多包容。 我沒有任何意圖要令你難受或覺得被攻擊。朋友加的傷痕，出於忠誠.

我想澄清一下：

神是真理，聖經是神賜下給人的關於他自己，關於人，關於世界，關於神的旨意的真理書。神對世界的詮釋與看法就是真理。是絕對無誤，永恆不變的。=======我們先找到真理的本體。

我們不應該因為真理本身的不可思議性就說真理是不可知，不可說，不可認識的。如果神願意讓我們知道，他就讓我們有能力知道。他在聖經中就是這樣做的。

  I am impressed by your very insistence about the "truth" you hold on. But as a friend .. I hope you can loosen up a bit, don't get too "fixated" on your idea, because it doesn't allow a good exchange of ideas occurs here. It is as if whatever the idea is against your belief, you would sure be pointing out with a clear-cut view. Good and not so good sometimes.. haha.. take it easy.

yes sir!

原帖由 Pathless 於 2008-2-9 08:04 發表
  I am impressed by your very insistence about the "truth" you hold on. But as a friend .. I hope you can loosen up a bit, don't get too "fixated" on your idea, because i ...

同往西安對真理的認知被那些無知且無良的牧師們蒙蔽了，怨不得她。。。。。。。

原帖由 Pathless 於 2008-2-9 07:53 發表
I wonder why I don't get responses from the many nonchristians/anti-christians here.

If you do pay some attention and stay here for a period of time, you will see the only posts they ever put interests in are those critisize and impute Christionity heavily. Once you let out a point which is against C, you will soon see some responses. On the contrary, if you dont' hide your sympathy to C so well, they will come even sooner, (guess what?) but against you.

However, since your major language is not their strength, you probably not getting such kind of annoyance. But surely you could always observe and see from your own eyes...

All Cs talking their faith here are with great courage.

[ 本帖最後由 buffer 於 2008-2-9 09:38 編輯 ]

I guess this is human nature -- everyone likes to watch action/very dramatic movies. You are pretty upfront and "critical" as well in some of the blogs here.  As I am not very new to this blog page, I keep posted with some of the goings here from time to time. There are steaming debates along the way, so are many other discussion blogs elsewhere. Some heating sentiments are fueled by the reactions of Christians as well -- so this is a two-way process. This is what attracting many people coming here.

加精華的版主們都哪裡去了。
抗議幾大版主對此貼的忽視！！！！

原帖由 子竹青青 於 2008-2-9 11:03 發表
加精華的版主們都哪裡去了。
抗議幾大版主對此貼的忽視！！！！

現在他們不管發鑽石，只管和稀泥

Ya, that's all right. I was talking from my point of view and gave a biased opinion. I will try to be more neutral when talking about other's behavior in the future, although that's not an easy job. Anyway, keep posting, someone just suggested to raise this topic in the fixed list. Maybe we should try to fullfill their intention.

支持！呵呵~

我現在可能很難從中立的角度來看問題。 因為世界觀已經形成。弟兄努力跟PATHLESS慢聊。PATHLESS的觀點應該是有些代表意義的。人本，神本，如何獲得真理。。。等等。我在旁邊學習。

我這世界觀也已經形成了呀……

學習可不敢當，pathless 的見解非常深入，而且也很坦誠地在聊。我別說用英文，就是中文也夠吃力，但是既然來了，我也只有努力了。有不當之處，請即提醒。

[ 本帖最後由 buffer 於 2008-2-9 14:00 編輯 ]

These words in your post really rose my instinctions of content, "finding the meaning of things is also a happy thing -- do you agree?" That's for sure the reason why we are all here to do the posting. Despite the hurts by some unwanted guys from their snappings, I do feel happyness when talking, discussing, testifying all the faith facts with others. And those feelings are really as basic as instincts.

Now let's return to my preivous question.

Suppose you are a creator.  Your plan is to build a huge lego mansion. For this purpose you created thousands or even millions of lego parts. Since you are so great on your creation art, all those legos are unique with each other and they still can be mounted together perfectly into what you designed to build. The "meaning of life" for each parts are as clear as water, if they do have feelings, and do taste the same happyness as you. I bet all of them will be totally overwhelmed by this happyness at the moment the final piece is done.  Now, everything looks good.

However, suddenly, somehow a single piece lego, decided that the "meaning of life" is not hold the position it designed to be, but just simply be as twice big as it currently is! It's so sure that only this enlargement will bring it ultimate happyness.

Now, let's forgot about who's right, who's wrong. Just by the term of "meaning of life". What do you think, as the creator, the meaning of life of this piece? How do you think the "meaning of life" as standing in the shoes of that exact piece?

Let's take it even further. Suppose this piece of lego eventually, amazingly achieved its goal! Now it's twice big and feels its own happyness. (well, obviously, the mansion will be a crap since it's not perfect anymore. or worse, can not even hold its base and collapsed.) In this case, what do you think the "meaning of life" for all the other pieces?

Let's go one more step further?(are you still ok with me? ) Since you are a true creator, you create another piece to replace the weird one just to make the millons of others fullfill their "meaning of life". By this time, the single piece must be put aside alone. Note, I'm not saying it'll cry, it's still happy. remember, it's still as twice big as its original size! What I want to say is, this strange, floaing alone, extra big single lego piece, created by you, does it really have a "meaning of life" now?

Sorry for late post. Hope this share not confuse you. Your thoughts are always welcomed.

再次抗議版主們對此貼的視而不見！！！！！