My view of truth and meaning of life: an attempt to embrace the difference

I understand that it would look a bit weird not to use Chinese in this forum - I am in fact Malaysian by origin, educated in Malaysia till my undergrads, and been studying and working in North America for almost 7 years - I don't think I am fluent enough to confidently using Chinese, though most of the time I find it ok to read chinese as I went through 6 years elementary schooling in a Chinese school.  The question of "the meaning of life" has been my longterm interest dating back as a kid. Raised in a Muslim country, went to a Christian school and been with many people of different faiths and from all walks of life ... it really sort of brought me to a horizon to see an argument/topic from quite a different perspective. I do not say my perspective is wiser or more superior, but for sure at least I think it is leaning to a more liberal one, as I try to seek the unity from all different thoughts for the sake of creating peace and understanding. Believe me, everyone is slave to their own minds. To make it very simple, if you agree, this mind is the source of all internal conflicts which can propagate to the external that which derives all sorts of fights and even wars. Which is why in eastern philosophies, the mind is usually referred to as the ego/self/illusion/bondage/maya when "it" is unaware of what and why it is working/acting through and by the 5 senses. The mind in actuality is a composite of transientory elements that can never have its own independent entity, which is why in Buddhist and nonduality advaita's perspective, the mind or "self" has no "permanent" substance and hence is "emptiness", though it appears as a continuous eventful series of forces that determines itself as though a separate entity or "self".  The "elements" that make up a mind is the "collection" of thoughts/intellects, memories/dwelling, analysis, mind-action or "karmic force",  and points of connections to thoughts/memories/mind actions -- they are inter-dependent and inseparable in essence.  If mind is truly understood - at the realization and recognition of its "real nature" as something that "cannot be hold on" or "it is borne to its own nature that already is "light, clarity, and eternity" - it is said to "attain" enlightenment, or one has freed from the bondage of "illusionary duality nature" because all sufferings, imperilment, and even this question of "meaning of life" is in fact "self-creating". In cognitive sciences and psychology, such descriptions have to be understood in the basis of "conceptualization" of mind -- the mind learns by identifying subjects by linking collectively similar characteristics/entities to "name/ label" that in fact is a "concept".  The whole identification is merely a conceptualizing process. The mind makes all concepts, and when it comes to explaining how the mind works, and what composes the minds in human words - unavoidably, we are using concepts to explain how the concepts are formed. In the essence of "deciphering" truth in many eastern religions/teachings such as Buddhism/Taoism/advaita schools -- this conceptual mind has to be fully understood, let it be as it is -- to create awareness of seeing its own plays in the plane of its own existence -- By fully understanding it, one will be able not to be influenced by it -- by all sorts of "Self-creating dramas and the impact of such dramatic plays, so it is said to get on the ultimate path of detachment, clarity and wisdom. In advaita.. it is also referred to unity with God/Brahman, to the divine. Please take note of the metaphors.     

In Abrahamic traditions, the mind, ego-person is actually described through a symbolic "sin", as its very nature, this sin separates this ego-person from understanding its origin -- true nature -- is "its origin from God", which is perfectly undisturbed and eternity in nature.  The separation from God is the ultimate cause of death/impermanence/unsatisfactoriness/evilous acts/loneliness, etc. Through the medium of Jesus described in Bible (christianity), Quran through the messenger of Mohammad (Islam), torah through the many prophets (Judaism),  the deluded human beings are given a chance to realize and "tackle" this separation -- from eastern religions, this separation could be referred to as a duality nature. The key solution for returning to the divine -- I will only talk from the Christian way since no one I guess would be interested to know any of other faiths.  In Christianity it is by confessing his sin to the Divine through a very strong vow/determination/belief -- Jesus, the sinless has crossed through the death -- that who has become the bridge to adjoin the sin to the sinless, from separation to unity with "God". Please note most conflicts within the many schools of Christianity branch off from different understandings of the metaphors, more than the core message. The confession of sin, and hence salvation through a well-intent "plan", is said to be driven by "the Divine" more than "self-intention". This is interesting.  The emphasis on there is an "outer divine force" that has to be coming upon for a full "transformation process" among the Christians to take place is in fact pointing to the fact that -- the ego-person or the sin-person cannot be saved from his own egocentric forces or the sin himself. The sin or the ego-person has to totally "surrender" to the divine, accepting the divine is the ultimate cure by faith and conviction. Please take note, this surrender is an act of letting the divine (nature) to take its own cause on oneself. The fully surrender and accepting venture of oneself is established by creating the propensity of unconditional love (love that is self-less .. not to love because "I" want to, but because this is God who loves me so dearly that I have to but not to bring this love to share with the other fella in the world). This love is "unselfish", this love is the tonic to break the ego-bridge which distants oneself from the divine, and to embrace the salvation from Jesus Christ. This love is to accept everything- good or bad - as something that is in the "God's plan" -- so let it be.  This is somewhat a coherent resonance to the attempt for realization of "ego-self" to the "self-less" nature in eastern religions.      

This is just some very principle of what I find among the essence of all religions. They are toward making harmonious world and peace. The war and fight and argument created between are the struggle of oneself  -- the struggle that needs to be conquested -- in order to see the truth. Without knowing how bad can the "self" be -- or the bad impact of separation with the divine -- that is endlessly suffering and unsatisfactoriness -- we wouldn't be able to appreciate and embrace how essential to embracing the "truth".

拜託，用中文吧。最簡單的那種就行。

我昨天用陰文，沒10分鐘就被罵了

[ 本帖最後由 借屍還魂 於 2008-2-9 01:05 編輯 ]

沒事啦，先用英文吧，可以慢慢嘗試用中文。這罈子上就有從小在美國受教育的網友努力練慣用中文的呢，剛開始很多簡單的詞語都要來問我的，現在已經越來越熟練了，好久都沒有問題了。鼓勵鼓勵！

原帖由 借屍還魂 於 2008-2-8 11:01 發表
拜託，用中文吧。最簡單的那種就行。

我昨天用陰文，沒10分鐘就被罵了

當然啦，你又不是從小受英文教育的！還要砸！

Ok, I would be appreciative if someone here would be kind enough to translate it for me to some readable language. Apology for those who find it hard to read.

原帖由 Pathless 於 2008-2-8 11:10 發表
Ok, I would be appreciative if someone here would be kind enough to translate it for me to some readable language. Apology for those who find it hard to read.

你會輸入中文嗎？

I perhaps can download from the webstie a chinese typing software. It would take me a while to use it, and I guess it would be better for me type in English than Chinese. For sure I will give it a try typing in Chinese in the future. Ok, I may not be coming to this forum as often since I have other stuffs in the pile crashing through the deadlines. So please understand if you don't hear from me for your questions/queries. The very purpose of this post is to bring up understanding among people of different faiths and belief systems. Conflict and war starts from not being able to understand fully the difference, and too fixated on own belief system as "the only way" -- this is the portray of our ego-self.. If this post instead brings up fights and arguments among chatters, then it has already drifted away from its purpose. Om shanti and be peace -- Amen!

謝謝分享。有些地方我是同意的。我想知道這些是你自己的觀點吧？

１。戰爭，紛爭等原因是因為自我內心的掙扎而產生的。

2。你認為我們需要知道自己是不完全的，自我是「敗壞」的。

3。不完全是因為我們跟神分開，這也是一切苦難的原因。

４。我們只有克服了自我的掙扎，才可能去認識真理。

我想，我們不如先討論真理是什麼？真理是排他的嗎？如何克服自我掙扎？

[ 本帖最後由 同往錫安 於 2008-2-9 02:22 編輯 ]

For humans of different belief systems/culture, truth can never be coming into consensus, because everyone has his/her subjective views about what is it. It is a concept defined by a set of pre-requisite assumptions. From a conceptual mind, truth is "defined" within the "concepts" that fit to individual's most satisfying interpretation of what it "could be". We, as human beings, will never be able to discern exactly whether the "concepts" that we hold on is in fact the "truth". By religious beliefs, it is said to be possible, but again putting aside the "abstractive" pre-requisite assumptions -- there is a GOD who is the Truth -- what actually can you find the elements of "truth" reside in this set of doctrine proclaimation?  It is impossible, it is the same as when you are trying to define what is "I", what is "sweet", what is "good", what is "bad" -- we usually refer these "qualities" to a composite of elements sharing similar "concepts/values". So, by asking whether there is truth, truth is all-encompassing or all-detering -- all sorts of these questions -- one may encounter difficulty, unresolved dilemma of trying to fit in the concepts, fitting to our convenience, fitting into a set of other elements again --- and the vicious cycle continues. So, in my opinion, it is worthless to define or even discuss about what is the ultimate truth -- but what the truth you believe in can do for you?

原帖由 同往錫安 於 2008-2-9 01:59 發表
我想，我們不如先討論真理是什麼？真理是排他的嗎？

我想需要分清界線：我們不能完全明白真理，不能完全正確地描述真理，不等同於真理不存在。同意否？我的理解是，你是同意真理存在的，只是無法完全，清楚地將它表達出來。同意嗎？

基督教的觀點，上帝就是真理的本體，他對世界的詮釋，對世界的看法就是真理。所以，我們完全相信真理是存在的，也是永恆與不變的。

接下來看人如何獲得真理。人既然不是真理的本體，人只可能去發現真理，人不能作為判斷的終極參照物。如你所說，每一個人都有不同的觀點，我們不能說所有人的觀點都是「真理」。同意嗎？

The struggle that makes the salvation of Jesus Christ in Christianity and the comprehension of four noble truths in Buddhism "valuable".  Because this struggle is the source of suffering and fear.  I have no authorization to say the best way to conquer this struggling because the universal "problem" is very individual ---- We all are not created with having same personality or same intelligence or same characters or even same minds .... Thus, rather than "believing" there is only one and the best way to conquest it  --- this will only create further separateness and conflicts within yourself, and yourself with surrounding  --- it would be more skillful to prescribe to something like -- We all have "our Own way" to know which is the best Way for us to overcome this struggle.   

原帖由 同往錫安 於 2008-2-9 01:59 發表
如何克服自我掙扎？

there is a GOD who is the Truth -- what actually can you find the elements of "truth" reside in this set of doctrine proclaimation?

上帝是真理，我們的理性要順服在他話語的啟示之下。也就是說我們的思想，行為，要根據聖經來調整，而不是我認為是怎樣就怎樣。上帝是真理，就給我們的思想，行為提供了標準。

The so-called "truth" as what prescribed in "your beliefs in the Holy Bible" is defined by you conceptual mind that is the best and only way for you. Unless you really are the "truth", you wouldn't be able to know whether this truth you prescribe to can be universally applicable to everyone here in this forum. Thanks for taking time to reply.

We all have "our Own way" to know which is the best Way for us to overcome this struggle.

呵呵～我們每一個人當然是不同的，但每一個人都有著內心的掙扎。而這種掙扎，是因為與神分開了。這一點我是同意你的。

既然克服掙扎的方式是與神和好，我想，我們不能把神放在一邊，不管神怎樣想，而努力找自己認為最適合的方法，最有可能的情況是，某人認為那是最好的，但實際上事與願違。

Unless you really are the "truth", you wouldn't be able to know whether this truth you prescribe to can be universally applicable to everyone here in this forum

真理既然是可以被知道的，我們就不能否定人可以宣稱他所了解的是真理。我想，分歧不在於，人不能獲得真理，不能宣告他所認識的是真理，而是人如何知道他所了解，認識的的確是真理。

We all do not know whether or not "truth" is comprehendible. But again, I agree that through a better understanding, one will come to some intuitive insights that whether this "truth" he/she believes in will do good for him/her. If believing that will bring beneficial outcomes -- one becomes more loving kindness, more understanding, more peaceful, happier, more content, more accepting and tolerant -- then you hit the jackpot .. These are the signs where the struggle has been "reacted" with courteous and effort. This is what Christians see as the transformation, the buddhists call it "jhana" -- the wisdom which breaks through the illusion from suffering abyss to the relieved shore.     

原帖由 同往錫安 於 2008-2-9 03:09 發表
真理既然是可以被知道的，我們就不能否定人可以宣稱他所了解的是真理。我想，分歧不在於，人不能獲得真理，不能宣告他所認識的是真理，而是人如何知道他所了解，認識的的確是真理。

Hi, it's not an easy path for me to read through your post since my Enligsh probably even worse than your Chinese. However, i do see a deep thought in your shining words that go through almost all the major divine descriptions ever created by human being. I'd been agree with you from the beginning to almost the very end. It's from there, my mind is separating with your path slightly. Allow me to share my thought with you in my crap wordings...

What you said about our minds is true. With the excellent explanation from your original post, we all agree that a 'fallen' creature can not find its own way back to the pure/perfect divine creator. So you got an assertion there that all kind of religions are sort of human efforts just to try to be closer to this divine creator. I will say, yes, in most cases it's very true. And I do was amazed how discerning your heart was there to incept these facts. From my standing point, all 'religions' created by human mind are destined to fail their ultimate purpose. The reason is simply because they "are" crated by 'fallen' creatures. The only way to reach the original goal by all such 'religions' has to be started, and granted from the other side.

So, the result will simply be two cases.

First, this creator does not granted any way to reveal us about this possibility. In another words, He said, NO. The we all are doomed. No matter how hard we chase and follow any kind of religions, we are just a crowd of meaningless 'beings' that's destined to fail the purpose of life. -- Please take note here, I'm not rejecting this possibility. This 'might' be the real cold "TRUTH", anyway, just might.

Second, this creator does have a way for us. Then for the obvious reasons He must also reveal this way to us by some means. There 'might' be different ways to do this. But what different from your mind and mine is: even if there are multiple methods to reach this creator, they must not conflict with each other. If it's a tricky/conflict/chaos creator, then I don't think we spare much from the first case.

So, as for human beging, we either live totally as a waste, or have to looking for this united, pure, granted way to reach out ultimate goal. -- I'm not selling you Christianity, that's merely a faith reside in my mind that my own thought believes it IS that way. You of course will, and must have a totally independent decision in your heart. And believe me or not, I'll never, ever, fight/war you because of that difference, if it does exist.

Last but not least, in my understanding, the war on the Earth not caused by 'true religion'. Each conflict, war, every one of them, are they truly caused by the differences among the people those pure willingness is just to understand the pease/pure/perfection/good? No. the real "root" of those wars, are selfish, pride, not-to-listen-to-others, and money, etc. They can't just declare war like that, so they find an extremely good excuse: religion.

Sorry for the grammar. Just my two cents.

[ 本帖最後由 buffer 於 2008-2-9 04:43 編輯 ]

Hi buffer -- thanks for making time for this and all the compliments.   Your ID handle "buffer" speaks of a "neutral" personality with ability to "neutralizing" the opposite.  There are way too many concepts being used in my posts. This is not my original intention.  Using those concepts, we may be able to bring up a very simple idea to look like something very 「hard」 or 「sophisticated. Again, I really don』t know how to simplify my words to make it crispy and easy to understand. The point is, and has been repeatedly made in my earlier posts, that everyone has their own subjective truth(s). The objective truth can only be coined in its idealistic terminology -- too ideal to be known its reality -- because whatever ideas that are thrown up from a subjective individual -- the objectivity is instantly boiled down to "objectifying subjectivity」.   For sure I value all of your inputs about the relationship between the creator God and the "fallen" beings, and your assumption that truth may only be "descended" by the "truth"/God himself to the "undeserving" humans.  I don』t think arguing about whether such assumption or doctrine is 「real」 or not is of any worthy.  The existence of religion and its teaching is literally a tool for a quest that human throughout the history has it. The quest for seeking the meaning of life, the truth – 「happiness」 and their 「longing fulfillment」. Most importantly, whether your religion/belief has transformed you to a 「better being」… in Bible – it is called whether you 「allow」 yourself being transformed by the Divine inside or not – so down to the very end, you literally need to take the first step, and continued effort is expected..  If the transformation doesn』t occur, the struggle of yourself will not be ever taken care of..  And if that perpetuates, you may be playing a part to create more suffering and conflicts into this world.  War is created by humans by whatever reason they justify to be right. Whether it is a result of human sin, greed, ignorance or hatred or religion or whatever labels is totally not important. Look at ourselves, what can we do to avoid all this from happening.