CCTV Channel 9 interview:The Jewish Influence in America

CCTV Channel 9 interview:

中央電視台九頻道訪談
The Jewish Influence in America
猶太人對美國的影響

People present at the interview：

Y: Yang Rui, Presenter of Dialogue on CCTV 9

J: Jack Rosen,President, AmericanJewish Congress

H: Harley Lippman,founder and CEO,Genesis
參與者:

楊瑞（音譯），中央電視台九頻道節目主持人，以下簡稱Y

傑克－羅森，美國猶太人委員會主席，以下簡稱J

哈利－黎波曼，美國創世紀公司的創始人和董事長，以下簡稱H

Y: Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said last October, "Don't worry about American pressures on Israel, because we Jewish people control America." Is this true, Jack?
楊：   以色列總理阿里埃勒-沙龍去年十月份說：「不要擔心美國給以色列的壓力，因為我們猶太人控制著美國。」此話是真的嗎，傑克？

J: No, we don't control America. We advocate on behalf of Jews in America and we advocate on behalf of Israel. We have historically been on the right side of many issues we advocate since WWII We were on the right side in response to Nazi Germany. We were on the right side of the creation of the state of Israel. We were on the right side of promoting and fighting for civil rights, religious freedom and for rights of all minorities in America through the 60s, the 70s and the 80s. And I think it's the result of being on the right side, being engaged in the issues we have had a great deal of influence on.　
J：不是的。我們沒有控制美國。我們只是為美國的猶太人和以色列辯護。二戰以後在很多問題上我們的主張歷來是正確的：我們對德國納粹的反應是正確的，對以色列復國的支持是正確的，在六十年代、七十年代和八十年代我們對民權、宗教自由、美國少數民族權益的宣傳和奮鬥是正確的。我認為猶太人在美國的影響之所以被看重是因為我們在過去的事件中一直是站在正確的立場上的。



Y: Other than your strong sense of justice in many areas you've mentioned, do you think the most important factor behind your influence could be... money? Financial power?　
楊：除了您剛才提到的那多方面的正義感之外，您是不是認為猶太人在美國的影響是因為他們的…比如說錢啊，經濟實力的原因呢？　

H: I think you can make an analogy with Chinese communities around the world. I think Chinese people and Jewish people have a lot in common. They both emphasize education, family value, history, ancestors and an attachment to land. Also, they are entrepreneurial. They are hardworking. So when that happens, people get jealous.　　
H：我想你可以拿世界上的華人團體作比較。我認為猶太人和中國人有很多共同點，都強調教育、家庭的價值、歷史、尊祖和固守土地。同樣，這兩個民族都有生意頭腦，吃苦耐勞。如此一來引起了其他民族的妒嫉。　



Y: Are those values that you cherish so much the main reason behind the success of the Jewish people, particularly in America?
楊：這些備受您稱讚的價值觀是否是猶太人，特別是美國猶太人成功的主要原因？

H: Absolutely! Family value, hardworking, and education.　
H：當然了！家庭、勤奮和教育。

Y: Why did William Fulbright say Israel could choose the US Senate?
楊：為什麼威廉-富布賴特說以色列可以選擇美國的參議院？（William Fulbright:威廉-富布賴特(1905-1995)，美國政治家，曾任美國參議院外交關係委員會主席）

J: Jews, as well as other minorities, exercise their constitutional rights in America and have the ability to advocate on their behalf. One of those ways is to advocate in the US Senate, Congress and US administrations. And we do contribute a lot of money in the political process. I don't think we do that because we are necessarily wealthier than other communities. I think we are engaged maybe more than other communities. And in doing so, we get our messages across. And you find that many minority communities, including the Chinese community in America are doing exactly that today.　　
J：猶太人，以及其他少數民族，可以使用美國憲法賦予他們的權力去為自己爭取利益。其中一項就是到美國上下兩院以及國家行政部門去為自己爭取權益。我們猶太人的確在這政治過程中捐助了很多錢，但我們捐錢並不是自以為比其他團體更有錢，而是我們可能比其他團體更熱心於介入。因為我們的參與，我們的觀點相應地得到了表達。可以看到，現在美國有很多少數民族在做我們同樣的工作，包括美國的華人團體。

Y: The Chinese community doesn't have as strong a voice in the Congress as the Jewish people, though. That's a pity.　　
楊：美國華人團體在美國國會中沒有象猶太人那樣有很大的影響力，很可惜。

H: I just think that the Jewish people have a lot more in common with the Chinese people, in fact, perhaps more than with any other people in the world. Chinese and Jews are the only two peoples that have the longest and most continual history. And both have suffered a great deal. China suffered a great deal in WWII. Millions of Chinese lost their lives to the Japanese and Jews lost 6 million people to the Germans. Because of that suffering and because Jews were victims, many Jews in America are active politically, to ensure that another holocaust does not occur to Israel or to the Jewish people. In that spirit, Jews, like Chinese, also promote tolerance. You know one of the things I've known about my trip to China here is that, of all the countries I've been to in the world, China is the only country that has no history of anti-Semitism, which is remarkable, and which is extremely impressive to us Jews, because we don't see that in many countries, particularly in Europe. 　　
H：我認為猶太人和中國人有很多相似之處，事實上，比與世界上其他民族相同的大概要多得多。中國人和猶太人是世界上僅存的兩個有著最悠久又沒歷史間斷的民族，都歷經磨難。在第二次世界大戰中，幾百萬的中國人被日本人奪去了生命，同樣，六百萬的猶太人被德國人奪去了生命。因為這些悲慘的遭遇，因為猶太人是受害者，所以很多美國的猶太人就積極參與政事，以保證屠殺猶太人的事件不再會在以色列國家和猶太人民身上重演。就這種精神，猶太人，就象中國人，同樣提倡容忍。你知道，我在中國學到的東西之一，是我去過那麼多的國家，就中國這個國家沒有迫害過猶太人的歷史，這點真的很特別，尤其是對我們猶太人來說，因為其他國家都沒有做到，特別是歐洲的國家。

Y: That's probably why the Israeli government turned out to be one of the few countries that accepted the People's Republic of China in the early days of our founding. The Labor Party in Israel developed a very friendly policy towards China. My next question is how many Jews are there in America.
楊：也許正因為這個原因以色列政府在中華人民共和國草創之際就承認了中國，成為最早承認中國的少數幾個國家之一。以色列勞工黨發展了一個對中國非常友好的政策。我的下一個問題是，在美國有多少是猶太人呢？

J: Approximately three million.
J：大約三百萬人。

Y: Harley, when we talk about the Jewish people in America, we say they are rich, they control the media and they control the banks. Do you accept this as true?
楊：哈利，當我們提起美國猶太人的時候，我們常說他們有錢，他們控制美國的媒體和銀行。你認為是這樣的嗎？

H: No, if I may be so blunt. If you look at the people who are really in the position to control the banks and media, you see Jews represented like you would see Italian Americans, Greek Americans. I think people tend to focus on individual Jews. If there are Jews who have very high positions in the media or in banking, they are doing it as individuals who happen to be Jewish. They are not doing it as part of some groups. We are doing it as individuals because our culture has established that you work hard and you focus on education.　　
H：恕我直言，我不這樣認為。如果你觀測那些真正有能力控制銀行和媒體的人，你會看到美國的猶太人和那些美國的義大利人、希臘人是一樣的。我認為人們傾向於把注意力集中到猶太人身上。如果有猶太人在銀行和媒體行業中職位很高，但他們也只代表個人，只是碰巧是猶太籍的人而已，他們並不代表一個團體來佔領要職。我們個人的努力是因為我們的文化使然：勤奮工作，注重教育。

Y: In a highly commercial society like the United States, if you control the media, that automatically means you will influence the perception of public opinion. When it comes to the Middle East issue, some of the Arabian minority groups in America fear that the opinion of the American society has been somehow shaped by your people because of your financial power, your wealth and your control of the media. Do you agree?
楊：在類似美國這樣一個高度商業化的社會裡，如果你控制了媒體，自然就意味著你也控制了社會的意識導向。當中東問題產生后，一些美國的阿拉伯少數民族擔心美國社會的輿論受到你們猶太人的影響，因為你們有經濟實力、有財富和媒體受你們的控制。你同意這個說法嗎？

H: If anything, I think the media is not balanced enough in the Middle East. I think we are often given distorted pictures. This is what we see around the world. For one, let's define Zionism. Zionism has somehow gotten a negative image. To me, Zionism simply means that Jews have a right to their homeland and the Middle East.
H：就算有這種說法，我認為媒體在中東地區是不太平衡的。我想我們常常得到歪曲的蟮潰歡峭ü@些歪曲了的報道我砹私庹世界的。舉個例子，我們來解釋猶太復國運動這個名詞，這個名詞本身已經變成貶義詞了，可對我來說，猶太復國運動就是指猶太人有權回到中東的祖國去，很簡單。

J: Look at what's portrayed in American media. They are real-life and factual pictures and stories. Look at the Middle East. You would portray Israel and you compare it to the rest of the Middle East. The fact that Israel is portrayed in a positive light, not because of the Jewish press, or Jewish-run press, as you are suggesting, but because that's the factual scene. But on the other hand, recently many Jewish communities suggest that they boycott the Los Angeles Times and New York Times, which are the top newspapers in the country, because of their coverage on Israel which they think leans more towards the Palestinians.
J：我們來看看美國媒體是怎麼報道的吧，都是真實的故事和寫照。再看看中東。如果你想報道以色列你最起碼會和中東的其他國家做比較。美國之所以對以色列的報道會是正面的，不是因為猶太人的新聞炒作，或者猶太籍人士的鼓吹，象你剛才談得到的，而是事實如此。當然從其他角度來說，最近有很多猶太團體聯合建議共同抵制美國最大的報紙之一的洛山磯時報和紐約時報，因為這些報紙在報道以色列的時候傾向於巴勒斯坦人的立場。

Y: How do you estimate the influence of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee? This seems to be the most influential organization that represents the interests of Jews in America.
楊：你是怎麼估計美以公共事務委員會（簡稱AIPAC）的影響力的？這個組織好象是美國最有影響的、代表猶太人利益的組織。

J: Extremely influential, probably the most successful lobbying groups in America, one that's being emulated by Muslims and Chinese amongst others. I think it's effective because Americans have been supportive of that policy. If you look at the support that Israel gets today, from Christian communities in America, if you combine Christian community support of Israel with Israeli support, how hard is it for a lobbyings groups such as AIPAC to be successful in the Senate? It's pretty easy.　


J：他們極其有影響力，可能是美國最有影響力的(在議會外為影響議員投票而進行的)遊說組織，現在穆斯林人、中國人和其他人都在仿效他們。我認為之所以有效是因為美國大眾一直都在支持這項政策。你調查一下目前以色列在美國基督教團體所得到的支持，如果你把基督教團體對以色列的支持加上以色列人本身的支持，要AIPAC這樣的遊說組織去獲得美國議會的支持有多難呢？太容易了。　　

Y: What are the most fundamental values of the Jewish religion?
楊：猶太教最基本的價值觀是什麼？　

H: One that comes to mind is that we judge people more by their deeds than their words. For example, in Catholic religion, you can say something and you can ask for forgiveness, or you go to confession on Sunday. If I understand it correctly, it tends to forgive on the basis of your words. In the Jewish religion, we focus more on deeds than words.
H:我腦子裡閃出的第一條答案是：判斷人的時候要注重人的行為而不是人的言語。舉天主教信仰的例子來說，你可以在說話冒犯人之後請求原諒，或星期天上教堂時求得神的寬恕。如果我這樣的理解是正確的話，這種饒恕僅停留在言辭之間。而猶太教，我們重點是看行為，超過語言。

J: Education, education, education! That's what our tome is all about.　　
J：教育，教育，還是教育。這是我們文化淵源之所在。

Y: You mentioned the WWII, but why were Jews hated and persecuted in many parts of the world before and after the WWII, like what was portrayed in Schindler's List?　　
楊：剛才你談到第二次世界大戰。但正如(電影)《辛德勒的名單》所描繪的，為什麼猶太人在二戰以前和以後都在世界各地遭受仇視和迫害呢？

H: I think there are two reasons. For one thing...　　
H：我認為這有兩種因素。一種是…

Y: Jealousy? 　　
楊：是妒嫉嗎？

H: Right, jealousy! Thank you for saying that. I think...　　
H：對，是妒嫉，謝謝你替我表達了。我認為…

Y: You don't think there's anything wrong with, say, the ways Jews do business around the world...?
楊：你不認為有些事情出了錯嗎，比如說，猶太人在世界上做生意的手段啊之類的…？

J: I don't think it's that shocking. I mean, what wrong did the Jews do in Spain? What wrong did they do to the Catholic Church? What wrong did they do in Poland? One of the biggest lies ever perpetrated on the Jews was done by the largest religion in the world, which is the Catholic religion. The Catholics blame the Jews for killing Jesus Christ. Children were taught in school that Jews killed Jesus Christ, not that Jews were rich, not that Jews have long noses, not that Jews should be hated ?they killed their God!　　
J：我不認為有那麼利害。我說啊，猶太人在西班牙到底做錯了什麼？他們哪裡得罪了天主教堂？他們在波蘭又怎麼了？猶太人被強加的最大的罪名之一來自於世界上最大的宗教組織，即天主教。　　天主教徒們指責猶太人殺害了耶穌基督。孩子們從小就在學校里受到灌輸，說是猶太人殺死了耶穌基督，並沒有說是猶太人有錢，猶太人有長鼻子，猶太人應該被仇視的。是猶太人殺死了他們的上帝！

H: I think the reason why Jews are targets is that they are easy targets. People like to blame. Hitler was looking to take power. If you look historically, people who blame others were projecting what they want to do. Hitler blamed the Jews for being powerful when he himself wanted to take power in Germany. We were a defenseless group. We didn't have a military force to defend ourselves. We were very easy targets. 　　
H：我認為猶太人成為靶子的原因是因為他們太容易對付了。人們喜歡指責。希特勒想獨攬大權。如果從歷史的角度來看，那些指責人的人是在賊喊抓賊。希特勒譴責猶太人太有實力了，其實他自己是在想把德國的權力握在手中。猶太人其實是沒有抵抗能力的團體，我們連自衛的軍隊都沒有，所以我們是一個很容易對付的目標。

J: Look, Harley, those are explanations that occurred later in history. The fact is that the Catholic Church blamed us for killing their God and from that emanated blame, hatred and persecution. When you go back in history, you cannot overlook that. There was a time Jews lived amongst Muslims quite comfortably, without any discrimination or anti-Semitism. But they could not live in Europe after the Catholic Church's doctrine prevailed.
J：嗨，哈利，你剛才的解釋其實是近代才出現的理論。事實上是那些天主教堂譴責我們殺害了他們的神，因此埋下這仇恨的果子，導致了仇視和迫害。你回頭看歷史，這一點你是沒法忽略的。歷史上曾經有過猶太人與穆斯林人相處融洽的時期，沒有歧視也沒有所謂反猶情結。然而當天主教教條在歐洲盛行之後，猶太人在歐洲就沒有了棲身之處。

Y: Are there any major organizations that coordinated efforts worldwide to bring former Nazi officers to justice? Do you think you have eliminated all the former Nazi officers scattered around the world, particularly those in Latin America?　　
楊：你們有沒有主要的機構組織負責聯合世界各地的分支機構，將以前的納粹分子抓來審判？你認為猶太人已經把所有散落世界各地的納粹分子，特別是逃到拉丁美洲的納粹分子，都消除了嗎？

J: Most likely those that are left are quite aged right now and will not be around much longer, thank goodness.　　
J：那些存留的納粹分子應該已經非常衰老、活不多久了，真是謝天謝地。

H: I believe that as a Jew, anyone who's the victim of racism or who has been murdered or fell victim to genocide because of his race or religion or nationality, should be defended. I personally thank President Clinton when he went to the aid for the Muslims in Kosovo, because I think they were victims of the Serbs. And I was saying this as a human being, and as a Jew who has a family that suffered in the holocaust, I believe my mission in life is to care for everyone who's the victim of this. So I think it's important that we stand up for all people - Chinese who were victims in WWII to the Japanese - for anyone around the world - the Tutsis who were slaughtered by the Hutu in Rwanda. And this list goes on. I think the Jewish people feel that if the memory of the holocaust is to have any meaning for the future, it is that we stand up for all people, all human beings who have suffered. That's an important principle   .　　　
H：我認為作為一個猶太人，對因為種族、信仰和國家的原因而成為民族歧視的受害者、種族滅絕的被謀殺者或受害者，我們都應該捍衛他們。我個人就非常感謝柯林頓總統派兵保護科所夫的穆斯林人，因為我認為他們是塞爾維亞人的犧牲品。我這樣闡明自己的觀點是因為我是個人，也是一個家庭成員受過希特勒大屠殺的猶太人。我認為我人生的目的就是為了關心每一位這樣的受害者。所以我主張大家要集體為所有的人伸張正義－中國人是二戰時期日本人的犧牲品－我們要為全世界的人伸張正義－在盧安達，圖西人被胡圖人屠殺，而類似的例子不勝靡舉。我想，如果猶太人感到希特勒的大屠殺事件對今後有任何意義的話，那就是我們應該為所有的人，所有受凌辱的人主持正義，這是一項非常重要的原則。