重新複製耶穌裹屍布再次證明基督教造假

義大利科學家利用中世紀的顏料材料重新複製耶穌裹屍布,再次證明基督教造假.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091005/sc_nm/us_italy_shroud
By Philip Pullella Philip Pullella – 1 hr 17 mins ago
ROME (Reuters) – An Italian scientist says he has reproduced the Shroud of Turin, a feat that he says proves definitively that the linen some Christians revere as Jesus Christ's burial cloth is a medieval fake.

The shroud, measuring 14 feet, 4 inches by 3 feet, 7 inches bears the image, eerily reversed like a photographic negative, of a crucified man some believers say is Christ.

"We have shown that is possible to reproduce something which has the same characteristics as the Shroud," Luigi Garlaschelli, who is due to illustrate the results at a conference on the para-normal this weekend in northern Italy, said on Monday.

A professor of organic chemistry at the University of Pavia, Garlaschelli made available to Reuters the paper he will deliver and the accompanying comparative photographs.

The Shroud of Turin shows the back and front of a bearded man with long hair, his arms crossed on his chest, while the entire cloth is marked by what appears to be rivulets of blood from wounds in the wrists, feet and side.

Carbon dating tests by laboratories in Oxford, Zurich and Tucson, Arizona in 1988 caused a sensation by dating it from between 1260 and 1390. Sceptics said it was a hoax, possibly made to attract the profitable medieval pilgrimage business.

But scientists have thus far been at a loss to explain how the image was left on the cloth.

Garlaschelli reproduced the full-sized shroud using materials and techniques that were available in the middle ages.

They placed a linen sheet flat over a volunteer and then rubbed it with a pigment containing traces of acid. A mask was used for the face.

PIGMENT, BLOODSTAINS AND SCORCHES

The pigment was then artificially aged by heating the cloth in an oven and washing it, a process which removed it from the surface but left a fuzzy, half-tone image similar to that on the Shroud. He believes the pigment on the original Shroud faded naturally over the centuries.

They then added blood stains, burn holes, scorches and water stains to achieve the final effect.

The Catholic Church does not claim the Shroud is authentic nor that it is a matter of faith, but says it should be a powerful reminder of Christ's passion.

One of Christianity's most disputed relics, it is locked away at Turin Cathedral in Italy and rarely exhibited. It was last on display in 2000 and is due to be shown again next year.

Garlaschelli expects people to contest his findings.

"If they don't want to believe carbon dating done by some of the world's best laboratories they certainly won't believe me," he said.

The accuracy of the 1988 tests was challenged by some hard-core believers who said restorations of the Shroud in past centuries had contaminated the results.

The history of the Shroud is long and controversial.

After surfacing in the Middle East and France, it was brought by Italy's former royal family, the Savoys, to their seat in Turin in 1578. In 1983 ex-King Umberto II bequeathed it to the late Pope John Paul.

The Shroud narrowly escaped destruction in 1997 when a fire ravaged the Guarini Chapel of the Turin cathedral where it is held. The cloth was saved by a fireman who risked his life.

Garlaschelli received funding for his work by an Italian association of atheists and agnostics but said it had no effect on his results.

"Money has no odor," he said. "This was done scientifically. If the Church wants to fund me in the future, here I am."

樓主結論明顯錯誤。張三能造出這麼一張布畫，不證明李四家傳的那塊是假的。

樓主在沒話找話說。

樓主結論明顯錯誤。張三能造出這麼一張布畫，不證明李四家傳的那塊是假的。
從不迷路 發表於 2009-10-6 02:52

"We have shown that is possible to reproduce something which has the same characteristics as the Shroud," Luigi Garlaschelli

樓主在沒話找話說。
sousuo 發表於 2009-10-6 04:04

這是今天雅唬頭條新聞. 不是我危言聳聽.

http://club.backchina.com/main/viewthread.php?tid=796105&extra=page%3D1
把這兩個貼合起來讀就可以看明白這個科學家工作的價值.

前面鑒定了裹屍布是後人製作的. 這位科學家用實驗重複了造假的過程.
進一步驗證了作假的可行性.

4# hellman

Luigi這麼說沒有錯，他並沒有證明基督教那張屍布是造假的。見我樓上的解釋。

5# hellman

毫無相關。比如你鄰居家有一個家傳的唐朝龍袍，你也做出來一件，幾乎一模一樣。難道就說明鄰居家傳的那件龍袍是假的嗎？你只能說明，你也可以做出來，你卻不能證明鄰居家的龍袍是假的。

5# hellman

毫無相關。比如你鄰居家有一個家傳的唐朝龍袍，你也做出來一件，幾乎一模一樣。難道就說明鄰居家傳的那件龍袍是假的嗎？你只能說明，你也可以做出來，你卻不能證明鄰居家的龍袍是假的。
從不迷路 發表於 2009-10-6 05:17

這種證明方法在科學上不是多餘的. 比如金字塔由人們證明是人搬的石頭. 怎麼搬的也
有推測. 最後還得找一些當地的人,演示一下才能完全證明是對的.

8# hellman

同樣，人工複製出金字塔，不能證明金字塔不是外星人造的。

都靈裹屍布是假的，但嚴格的科學證據不是才有這種類比的方法得到。這個故事很曲折，還沒有最後的結尾，其中原因之一就是教會不允許再做C14鑒定了。

本來，我準備就都靈裹屍布寫個長文，但激情一過，就沒有寫了。大致說說也可以：

都靈裹屍布的疑點太多，真的可能性不大。但科學需要精確的數據結論，而不能靠排除法。有很多證據不利裹屍布，但沒有一個完全顛覆性的。在1988年（？）開始的用C14測定，受到批評，1，在採樣的位置，有黴菌污染的現象。經管構不成嚴重誤差（要有20cm的厚度才能有明顯誤差），但污染造成誤差是不可否認的；2，美國一對在圖書館工作的夫婦證明了裹屍布採樣的位置有後期編織修補的痕迹，也造成了誤差。

現在由於教會不允許重新鑒定，大家只能猜測，用複製的方法來推斷。科學檢驗的原則之一就是能重複。現在這個情況，不允許再檢測，就很難有一個肯定性的結論。

都靈裹屍布是個試金石，試科學這個真金：科學只看證據，不管人的動機，身份。默默無聞的圖書館工作員，處於維護都靈裹屍布的目的，但他們證據無可質疑，在科學專業期刊上發表，就推翻了世界權威專家的實驗。這種故事，在科學史屢屢發生。

Garlaschelli 的結果的意義在於，它以科學證據支持了這種可能性----圖靈裹屍布是假的。以前有許多人懷疑那是後人偽造的，但並不能解釋它上面的血跡和圖像。而現在對此有了一個科學的解釋。它為人們自行思考，以得出自己的結論提供了一個新的信息。

11# 自由之靈

我不同意的是樓主這句話：

義大利科學家利用中世紀的顏料材料重新複製耶穌裹屍布,再次證明基督教造假.

這個實驗無論如何不能得出這個結論。

12# 從不迷路


可能是這樣：中世紀的顏料，說明那布是中世紀的物件，耶酥不是那時候的人，所以造假。

13# sousuo

用中世紀的顏料做出這個布，不能證明用中世紀以前的顏料不能。同理，這根本不能證明圖靈的那塊是假的。

我說的是那人的思路，如那顏料中世紀前沒有，能說明點什麼的。

文物就是靠這些判斷的，如某某年的紙張，某某年的裱糊技術等等。

12# 從不迷路

是啊，說證明了裹屍布是造假確有些牽強。「a feat that he says proves definitively that the linen some Christians revere as Jesus Christ's burial cloth is a medieval fake.」 Garlaschelli 可能是太高興啦。

還是他後來補充的更為實在：「這個結果證明了在中世紀（以人工）製作一件具有與那塊裹屍布有同樣特性的物件是可能的。」也就是說，證明了造假是有可能的。

這個結果其實還有很多問題要回答。比如，在70年代後期至80年代初期這塊裹屍布的圖像曾經在美國被一些來自著名的實驗室, 包括Air Force Weapon Laboratory, Sandia Laboratory,  the Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory, and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL)等的科學家仔細研究過，參加人員是物理, 空氣動力學, 化學, 計算機圖像處理和分析等領域的專家。研究結果還發表在《科學》上。(Culliton, B.J., "The Mystery of the Shroud of Turin Challenges 20th-Century Science," Science, Vol. 201, 21 July 1978, pp.235-239, p.236)  （現在想想真有些不可思議啊。）

當時有一個謎團是，儘管裹屍布上的血跡被鑒定為是人類的血跡，科學家們卻沒有找到任何染料或油料等類似材料的痕迹。現在Garlaschelli做出的東西是不是會留下這種痕迹呢？

另外一個有趣的結果是，JPL 的科學家在80年代用JPL的VP8 圖像分析儀，一種專門研究行星圖像的儀器，來觀測裹屍布圖像的底片，竟然發現上面的圖像是個三維圖像。這在普通的繪畫中是不容易達到的。義大利這個新作品有沒有類似的效果？

當然，最有說服力的還是應該提取一塊可靠的樣本，重新做個C14測定。

參考： http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/quotes/stuc0706.html

16# 自由之靈

原文：The Catholic Church does not claim the Shroud is authentic nor that it is a matter of faith, but says it should be a powerful reminder of Christ's passion.

其實，真的又怎樣？假的又怎樣？即使是2000年前的東西，也不能證明那就是耶穌的裹屍布啊，更不能證明那影像是誰。鬧來鬧去，啥也說明不了。

用這些科學的方法只能驗證某物的年代，除此，卻什麼都不能證明。有哪個科學能證明處女能懷孕生孩子了？即使是克隆，那也該女人克隆女人，沒有男人的細胞，女人如何克隆出男人？