An Interview With Dipa Ma

In conversations that took place in Calcutta in 1977, Jack Engler got to know one of the twentieth century』s most accomplished meditation teachers.

Outcomes of Practice

What changes did you notice in yourself after experiencing First Path?

I had been overweight and had a number of physical ailments: high blood pressure, heart palpitations, shortness of breath, trouble climbing stairs, coldness in my extremities, insomnia. All of these got better. Mentally, I used to worry a lot about the future: how I would live, what would happen to me, how I would take care of my daughter. I felt so much grief over the loss of my husband, and that was a terrible source of suffering. I was burning day and night with it. That burning grief cooled down and left, though I continued to feel sad over losing him. I could accept that where there is birth, there is death. I still think about him. Any question of a permanent self became meaningless. For those who go to the depths of practice, the idea of a permanent "self" disappears.

Sense-desire comes up a lot in people』s practice. Does it come up for you still?

It is important to distinguish between sense-pleasure and sense-desire. There is nothing wrong with sense-pleasure. Pleasure and pain are part of our human experience. Sense-desire, on the other hand, is the grasping at pleasure or the avoidance of pain. This is what creates suffering—grasping and avoidance. Sense-desire comes up for everyone. It came up for me, too. When it arose, I knew it—and that』s the way to overcome it. I don』t feel sense-desire anymore. Sense-desire and anger don』t go away after First Path. They are weakened after Second Path and completely go away after Third Path.

Westerners seem to struggle a lot with sense-desire and anger.

I was older when I started practice, so naturally my sense-desires weren』t as strong. Sense-desire is also an instinct which remains in you through cycles of rebirth. It is already very weak in those who were born from the Brahma-loka [heaven realms], for instance. . . . You can stay in the world of sense-desires and still be a good Buddhist, though, because you can be out of the world at the same time, in the sense of not being drawn in or attached. All who are householders can proceed in this way. Buddha has said you can even indulge in sense-desire and be a good follower of dharma, and for most people this is part of an average, normal life.

Do you experience anger at all?

As soon as it comes, at the very start, I』m aware of it. It doesn』t get any nourishment.

What do you do when you begin to feel irritation or anger?

Anger is a fire, but I don』t feel any heat. It comes and dies right out.

Do you still find yourself acting against the precepts sometimes?

After First Path, I found I couldn』t intentionally do something which grossly violated the Five Precepts [the precepts lay practitioners agree to follow: to refrain from lying, stealing, improper sexual conduct, killing, and taking intoxicants]. If I did, it was usually a reflex action out of habit. I knew it right away, and I acknowledged it and asked forgiveness. After Second Path, right action became second nature. It seems natural to me now.

Have your relationships changed—the way you relate to others and interact with them?

Yes. Before, I used to discriminate: "This is my friend"; "These are my relatives." And there was attachment. Now I feel loving thoughts and metta [lovingkindness] toward everyone. I don』t discriminate. I don』t say, "This is my daughter—I have to give her more attention." My love feels the same toward everyone.

Before Dipa was born, I wanted to adopt a son. My husband said, "There are lots of boys everywhere. Why don』t you give your love to them as your son?" I didn』t understand it at the time, but it was a great teaching.

Do you enjoy others』 company now, or do you prefer to be alone?

I love to be around people who talk about dharma or the mind, or about themselves. I like to hear about these kinds of things, and I like to help if I think I can. But ordinary or useless talk doesn』t interest me, nor does going out to visit someone just to visit. In that case, I would rather be by myself.

Are you ever lonely?

I enjoy being alone. I never feel lonely. I used to spend a lot of time going here and there, meeting this person and that person. Now I』m not interested in that. Whenever I』m alone, my mind automatically turns inward, observing the way body and mind are working. I do what is necessary day to day, but with detachment. If my body needs food, for instance, I eat. Whenever I meet a friend or relative, I don』t get into much conversation about what is going on at home or about daily affairs. I ask whether they are practicing meditation, and if not, why not, and I encourage them to devote themselves to it and not waste time.

Is still living a lay life and having all the day-to-day household and family concerns a hindrance to your practice?

No. Whatever I am doing, mindfulness is present. In fact, meditation made me much more certain of my responsibilities toward my family. I became more confident as a mother, for instance, more certain of my responsibilities toward Dipa. I was asked to stay in Burma and become a sayadaw [J.E.: an honorific used for an accomplished teacher; there were no female sayadaws at that time to my knowledge], but I didn』t want Dipa to lose touch with her Bengali roots and people. So I moved us back to Calcutta from Rangoon.

How do you experience this life now? Is it something to be enjoyed, or something to detach from and leave behind?

There is nothing ultimately desirable in this world, nothing to cling to. But still, we can make good use of everything in it. So samsara [the phenomenal world of suffering] is not to be rejected. It can be used for personal betterment and to help others.

Has your basic outlook on life changed as a result of your practice?

It』s changed greatly. Before, I was too attached to everything. I wanted so much. Now it feels like I am floating free, not attached. I am here, but I don』t want anything for myself any more. I』m living, that』s all. That』s enough.

Are you afraid of death?

No. I understand the living death. I have already seen death and dying in living, and I accept them as part of life.

What kinds of things make you happy now?

What makes me happy has changed. Before, I used to take a lot of pleasure in nice clothes, nice friends, nice food. Now if I』m allowed to hear dharma, practice meditation, and work in my own way, I』m happy.

Do you think it is possible for a human being to be completely happy in this life?

As long as one is not yet arahanta [fully enlightened], has not yet extinguished all the "fetters" [specific types of mental activity that bind one to the wheel of existence], one is not fully happy. My journey is not over. There is still work to be done.

What kind of work?

Mind should be entirely free from greed, hatred, and delusion. I still experience some.

Extracted from: Enlightenment In This Lifetime:

Meetings With A Remarkable Woman --- An Interview With Dipa Ma

http://www.tricycle.com/interview/enlightenment-lifetime