倍可親

關於慈善的有些討論比叫板本身還精彩。記之以勿忘。

作者:jadepython  於 2012-8-27 22:41 發表於 最熱鬧的華人社交網路--貝殼村

作者分類:每天情緒|通用分類:熱點雜談|已有11評論

龍:

    Well, we have different point of view on this one, there are people who has big ego but in reality, with shallow pockets, and it is not necessarily say those people are cheap toward kindness. Overall, money is easiest way to donate when you have plenty.

    I just don't think back someone into the corner to prove they are shorter is a fair game.

    I know you are such a kind person, just please don't grow too much teeth around your kindness heart.



蛇:

    You are a genuine kind person...I guess just hate to see those wannabes put on disguise to fake dragondragon :)

    It is just...I am kinda pessimistic about the power of kindness alone. Sometimes you have to rely on tangible means...be it a harsh critic or a small amount of money.



龍:

    I agree with you on sometimes,  tangible means or harsh critic would help to speed up the progression, and sometime it can also be double edged sword.

    Kindness and assimilation are two other fundamental things we also need, it may seems having very slow influence, but for sure last longer, talking about why our culture still exist among the cradle of civilizations.

    sigh~~~again,  think I talk too much today, and there are no right or wrong answers, good thing is at least we can talk about it





云:


    Talking without action can go either way, either right or wrong, depending on the parties who are debating.  In this regard, I don't think anyone would be successful in converting and recruiting the other camp.  Just such plain darn reality!   

    However, when it comes to things as concrete as an action, ethics are usually involved.  Often when we talk about ethics, we are justifying our actions by saying they are right/ wrong relative to the other's.  

    That's why DaShe got his point.  Quite good job in laying out his points.  I do agree with 99% of them.  The 1% that I don't agree with is "知行合一「 must have to be concretely reflected through an immediate "tangible" action, such as donating $2222. There are other ways to achieve that reunion, and the process of such reunion is not static and exclusive.  In other words, you don't have to provide direct service or goods; you can do other things indirectly beneficial to that group of people.  

    Another reason I am bit shun away from the idea of donation is although donating a chunk money as big as $2222 is truly impressive, it actually makes me ponder how much effect it would result in its target population - the children depicted in all of those gloomy bleak pictures.  This is something I am really concerned about.  

    This reason is self explanatory given the considerations to the system, the corruption.... So I usually don't donate unless I know who is handling the money.

    I am not cold; my heart always goes out to them when I see pictures like these.  But I am even more sad when I have to see resources like the donations from all the heavenly good hearts go down the drain!  

    Because of that, I guess I am even more miserably pessimistic than DaShe, as he still donations, although in such flamboyant way.....

    Well, too much being said... I am getting too philosophical...but I'd rather see the world in this way when I see things like those children's lives because I feel powerless in making changes in their lives.  There are just way many hurdles between.  

    You might argue that at least I can try to donate.  Although the corruption exists, there is always some money going to the other end.  Well, if you say so, you might have got a point unless I ask to you to show me the evidence.  But would it make the whole process even more convoluted?

    so keep it simple.  talking with action is better than talking without action.  When there is tentatively no action, then say nothing.




蛇:


    某雲,

    First of all, I am only speaking for myself for the amount. The $2222 was merely a bashing blow to those big-mouth-Rolians, not a tool or trick to solicit more dollars from perspective true-hearted donors.

    In terms of 知行合一,The reason I called for chipping in the dollars first and asking people to follow suit, aside from playing  the matching game mentioned above, is because I firmly believe it is THE most fateful first step one could take to actually make this charity event reality.

    You could talk and talk, debate and debate, evaluate and evaluate, convince and convince...at the end of the day, you will find people start losing passion, getting tangled up with fine details and drifting apart... and you would need a charismatic leader to convince or even coerce the group back on track.

    That rarely happens, because those leaders are born and they don't come in dozens. You would be lucky to work with one in person in your whole life.

    So it is actually really simple if you just start act spontaneously by donating a few bucks, these few bucks will buy you a group of people with this magical 「stickiness」: They will then trying to find a channel to funnel these money to a consensual initiative -- just like the 「life finds a way」 in Jurassic Park  

    To orchestrate a group people like that is a much easier job. You basically just need an accountant and a voting machine.

    This is why I am saying talking is cheap and acting is gold, not because the latter is more more noble than the former, it is because the latter leads to results and keeps the project on track.

    But you wouldn't know all these - unless you chip in the first dollar.

    Mark my word: The Rolia thing 櫻桃果果 is organizing, will not have any significant outcome unless they start chipping in right now -- not because I wish them to fail, because they already failed --- right at the starting line.


云:



    Don't get me wrong.  I actually admire people like you who can jump in and start doing things right away.  And I also believe physically doing thing is eventually THE WAY to make things really happen. :-)

    You seem to be much more like a doer than me. I am not saying I am not a doer.  Actually I am, too.  But, I tend to be more on the observer side first when it comes to the resource issue.  hehe, I am quite stingy in a sense.  But when we talk about resources, we must have to be stingy.  Don't you think so? The attitude toward utilizing resources is it is not like we should not spend any resources; it is like how we should maximize the use of resources.  

    Money is one of the resources.  It is repugnant to see resource is being suck in some greedy hands when it could actually be utilized in a much more meaningful way.  That's why I want to know the process of using the money before I donate.  

    Therefore, from this perspective, I kind of understand those Rolians who are compassionate to initiate such action.  They might be just like me in some ways.  They want to do something good but also worry about the system over there.  So, I wouldn't consider them being like the people who are only fond of talking, talking...

    Although I understand there are ones who are only good talking.  So I understand why you challenged them to follow you.  Yes, this can be a good way to illustrate "知行合一", but it is not the only way.  

    So I'd suggest give them some time and believe they will follow you somehow in some other ways in some days.  That's what I meant "知行合一" does not have to be solely reflected through donation.  Perhaps, one saying made years ago can reunite with one deed many years later, as long as one keep his/her action consistent with his/her ideas.

    Look, in this sense, I am less pessimistic than you!  I still believe the good sides of people, although I myself choose to talk only with action!



龍:

    我同意你的觀點,知行要合一才真正有意義;有知無行不過是空談,有行無知為莽撞。大蛇本身就是知行合一很好的例子,這應該也是他事業小有所成的原因。但所謂的知行合一究竟是律己還是律他,我和大蛇的意見是不同的。我沒有大蛇的見識和學識淵博,更沒有他的膽識和魄力,他的做法很可能比我的有效,但我依然相信人性本善,知源於書本,行效仿於榜樣。

    對於慈善,如果說每一分錢對於貧困的孩子都是幫助。那麼問題如果變成:貧困孩子可以的得到10塊錢,但捐款人要付出100塊的成本把這10塊錢送到孩子手裡。我們是不是依然願意捐款呢。很多的時候,我的想象會束縛我自己,不過是因為我自認看透了社會黑暗的本質,但如果社會並不是我想象的那麼黑暗呢......社會上究竟是好人多,還是壞人多呢? 我承認,我仍然很幼稚。

    的確,錢是做善事最簡單的方法,當我更在乎我的時間時,錢是很容易給我買一個內心的平安的。在我做不到用餘生的精力去行善時,花二千大洋,一個星期的薪水便成了更容易的選擇,難道不是么。我是個凡人,做自己能力以內的,所以,我接受自己局限。至於將來,引用你的話:「 talking with action is better than talking without action. When there is tentatively no action, then say nothing.」


云:


    是啊,知行合一不一定必須同時發生。有些時候,一個inspiration 需要很長時間才能actualized.

    大蛇也對,你總得邁出第一步吧。對於他來說,他的第一步可能很輕鬆,但是不見得誰都跟他一樣吧?再說,有些錢有的,也不能強求誰都跟他一樣不care這錢怎麼用吧?

    donation可以就像扔個錢進捐款箱那麼簡單,也可以很複雜,比如去查找到底donation都幹了些什麼?是肥了某些人的肚腸呢?還是真正去了孩子們的身上?我個人比較care後者。

    這不像地震捐款。那是一次性的。像那些孩子們,是需要長時間的幫助,不光是金錢上的,更多的,我想要從社會環境著手,那才是根本的。

    但這後者,似乎有點遙不可及。


蛇:



    呵呵,再講下去,恐怕真成了人生哲學的角度和差異了。

    其實我們說的可能不一定是一件事的同一個角度。我這個人比較右,比較看重「術」的作用,龍大概是講「仁」的力量,雲大概是講的是「勢」。

    術比較有效,但心術不正就瞬間完菜。
    仁是永遠的,但在人性弱點前會前進得很艱苦。
    勢,是要時間和耐心積累調整的。

    我想可能大家都有道理吧。至於有多少比例的錢被貪了這種想法,俺感性地講過一個老生常談的小故事:

    一個孩子在海邊,把退潮滯留在沙灘上的小銀魚一條條扔回到海里。。旁邊的路人不禁問他:傻孩子,這千百萬條小魚,你一條一條扔,有什麼用呢?

    孩子沒有吭聲,低頭看著手裡的小魚,輕聲說:

    「對這一條有用」。

    。。。。

    我覺得,雖然要考慮損耗和規避污濁的系統,但是還是盡量希望,對某一個我們未必謀面的不幸中有幸的孩子,有用吧。

    再說,哥說過,為善,更多的是修心么,呵呵,咋都不吃虧。



龍:

    唉~~~先做能做的吧。

    大蛇逼捐的做法也是不敢苟同啊。



云:


    其實,這個問題在很多情況下都有表現,比如healthcare system.  有些生病的人很「可憐」 (我其實很不喜歡這個詞,因為我覺得沒有人需要別人去可憐),但在有些情況下,healthcare resources就不能為他們所用。

    那怎麼樣才能在有個相對的平等機會呢?這個問題太難回答了,往往最後就成了討論資源是否最大化的問題。

    我欣賞把小魚一條條扔回去的effort,也明白長期的付出有時不如就拿出一個星期工資來得那麼容易。

    可是,我們去做一件事,是真的為了自己覺得好么?自己覺得好,也許是促使我們去做一件事的動機。當我們開始做了的時候,我們還是希望make a difference。那就需要在大的格局裡的改變。

    具體點吧,要不要被說成太虛飄了。比如,現在捐¥2000,然後你好好管理的¥2000的用途。不管的話,也許那個孩子就到手¥5,就夠買個書包。假如好好盯著的話,那個孩子可能會上一年學,比原來更有謀生能力。。。。

    所以,西方文化里有個理念我深信不疑,independence. 教孩子獨立的能力,相信他自己最終會有那個emancipatory power去拯救他自己。

    又philosophical了, darn it!!



高興

感動

同情

搞笑

難過

拍磚

支持

鮮花

發表評論 評論 (11 個評論)

回復 甜,不甜 2012-8-27 22:47
好傢夥,雙管齊下。 。沙發上,慢慢讀了
回復 fanlaifuqu 2012-8-27 22:52
philosophy 無處不在!
回復 i0u 2012-8-27 23:35
everybody has different point of view, and acts differently, all that make this world become an interesting place, isn't it
回復 jadepython 2012-8-27 23:47
Yes indeed. Diversity lead to superiority. Rome, Qin-Han, Tang, British Empire and USA, no more proofs needed.

I solute any kind of actions -- if there are indeed actions.

To me, a charity activity is probably the simplest thing to run. Because first of all everyone has the same vision (helping poor kids in remote areas in China), the mission is also quite simple (give them means of betterment), what is left is just execution like any corporation life-cycle:

fund raising (like IPO)  -->draft charter --> form board --> appoint management -> set short/long term goal -> start project  -> monitor and adjustments -> dissolution (or re-org) when mission accomplished.

I don't under stand why people have to get into all these future steps before the first step of pooling the money, that to me, simply defy common senses.

But hey, diversity eh...maybe some innovations on this life cycle too...let's see then.
回復 JuneRipple 2012-8-28 02:47
jadepython: Yes indeed. Diversity lead to superiority. Rome, Qin-Han, Tang, British Empire and USA, no more proofs needed.

I solute any kind of actions -- if the ...
well-articulated....  yep, the process itself should be flowing like this...  and more, you did raise a good question:  Why do people have to get into all the future things before even making the first step?

One possible answer from my end is once trust is bruised it is bruised.  I don't know how much effort is exactly required to heal, but I do know it takes more than just double, or triple, or more.

China does have that trust issue unfortunately given by its system.

Nonetheless, I do believe as you do:  the end vision should be the same when it comes to humanity perspective, and hope the process could have been less bureaucratic and convoluted for the benefits of the people who are in grave need of help.  

回復 hotmoon 2012-8-28 08:42
老 天爺,好複雜,搞不懂。。。

DREAMER OR DOER?
回復 jadepython 2012-8-28 11:10
hotmoon: 老 天爺,好複雜,搞不懂。。。

DREAMER OR DOER?
都是龍龍上班沒法打字。。開英文鬧的。
回復 hotmoon 2012-8-28 12:52
想的太多了....慈善的樂趣都不見了....覺的慈善也是滿足自己,成全自已呀....我不能和被幫的對象走的太近,別人對我的期盼和感激,有時對我是一份負擔....STRESSFUL....

幫了就走...最好也別聯繫了....
回復 超越2010 2012-8-29 01:54
   這篇很深刻,龍,蛇,雲的語氣和手筆感覺像出自一人之口,但卻完整統一。正如文中講到的:

蛇重「術」的作用,龍講「仁」的力量,雲講是「勢」,而

    術比較有效,但心術不正就瞬間完菜。
    仁是永遠的,但在人性弱點前會前進得很艱苦。
    勢,是要時間和耐心積累調整的。

如果龍,蛇,雲如這篇文章的默契和智慧統一起來,那必定是奇觀,必竟精神思想上的默契,會節省不少物質以外的心理成本。
回復 jadepython 2012-8-29 02:03
超越2010:    這篇很深刻,龍,蛇,雲的語氣和手筆感覺像出自一人之口,但卻完整統一。正如文中講到的:

蛇重「術」的作用,龍講「仁」的力量,雲講是「勢」,而

    ...
呵呵。。你還在肉聯么?

竟然,竟然真就這麼流局了么?
回復 超越2010 2012-8-31 20:42
jadepython: 呵呵。。你還在肉聯么?

竟然,竟然真就這麼流局了么?
才發現你說的肉聯貌似一個網站,對嗎,這個不是很清楚,沒那麼多時間折騰這些,所以揀好東西看。

facelist doodle 塗鴉板

您需要登錄后才可以評論 登錄 | 註冊

關於本站 | 隱私權政策 | 免責條款 | 版權聲明 | 聯絡我們

Copyright © 2001-2013 海外華人中文門戶:倍可親 (http://big5.backchina.com) All Rights Reserved.

程序系統基於 Discuz! X3.1 商業版 優化 Discuz! © 2001-2013 Comsenz Inc.

本站時間採用京港台時間 GMT+8, 2019-10-18 10:27

返回頂部