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加爾文沒有殺人嗎?看看加爾文傳記里怎麼記載的

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在美一方 發表於 2009-1-29 13:20 | 只看該作者 回帖獎勵 |倒序瀏覽 |閱讀模式
某基督徒說到:

原帖由 同往錫安 於 2009-1-29 12:15 發表 [過年了,基督徒朋友請進 - 信仰天地 -  backchina.com]  
第二,加爾文沒有殺人,請仔細閱讀58樓。


我來貼貼加爾文傳記裡面關於加爾文與殺人有關的列表吧。長了點兒,還是英文的,大家將就著看我加重的那些吧。

(The following information can be found in the book CALVIN: A BIOGRAPHY, by Bernard Cottret, published by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company Grand Rapids, Michigan, copyright 2000. Page numbers are included for each entry.)

1. (page 128) 1536 - CALVIN PROPOSES "a confession of faith" for the Genevans

2. (page 128) November 10, 1536 - Confession of faith presented, entitled "Confession of Faith, which all bourgeois and inhabitants of Geneva and subjects in its territories should swear to keep to and hold." - This document granted the right of the government to excommunicate offenders and protect the innocent by chastising the guilty.

3. (page 128) January 16, 1537 - Geneva authorities approve the Confession of Faith and the separate articles PRESENTED BY CALVIN.

4. (page 129) 1537 - One provision of the Confession of Faith and its articles included that pious images kept in people's private homes must be destroyed.

5. (page 129) March 1537 - Anabaptists were banished. (Anabaptists were primarily defined by their rejection of infant baptism.)

6. (page129) April 1537 - At CALVIN'S INSTIGATION city officials including captains and district wardens were commanded to go from house to house to ensure that the inhabitants subscribe to the Confession of faith.

7. (page 129) October 30,1537 - There was a final attempt to obtain a confession of faith from all who had been hesitating.

8. (page 129) November 12, 1537 - District by district, all those who had not made the confession of faith were ordered to leave the city.

9. (page 180) February 1545 - "Freckles" Dunant dies under torture without admitting to the crime of spreading the plague. His body was then dragged to the middle of town and burned.

10. (page 180) 1545 - Following the incident with Dunant, several more men and women were apprehended including a barber and a hospital supervisor who had "made a pact with the devil."

11. (page 180) March 7, 1545 - Two women executed by burning at the stake (presumably for the crime of sorcery, i.e. spreading the plague). CALVIN INTERCEDED apparently to have them executed sooner rather than later after additional time in prison. The Council followed his directive happily and urged the executioner to "be more diligent in cutting off the hands of malefactors."

12. (page 180) 1545 - more executions, tortures carefully watched to prevent death. Most of the tortured refused to confess. Means of death varied a little to include decapitation. All under the crime of spreading the plague. Some committed suicide in their cells to avoid torture, afterward the rest were handcuffed. One woman then through herself through a window.

13. (page 208) 1545 - CALVIN HAD the magistrates seize Belot, an Anabaptist (against infant baptism) for stating that the Old Testament was abolished by the New. Belot was chained and tortured.

14. (page 180) May 16, 1545 - The last execution concerning the plague outbreak, bringing the total dead to 7 men and 24 women. A letter from CALVIN attests to 15 of these women being burned at the stake. CALVIN'S only concern was that the plague had not come to his house.

15. (page 189) April 1546 - Ami Perrin put on trial for refusing to testify against several friends who were guilty of having danced. She was incarcerated for refusal to testify.

16. (page 190) July 1546 - Jacques Gruet was accused of writing a poster against Calvin. He was arrested and tortured until he admitted to the crime. He was then executed.

17. (page 177) November 22, 1546 - CALVIN DRAWS up a list of names inappropriate for baptism (i.e. inappropriate for naming children). CALVIN'S position insisted that a name appear in the Bible, or it was inappropriate.

18. (page 217) February 13, 1547 - CALVIN WRITES to the man who would preside over the burning of Michael Servetus. In the letter CALVIN WRITES, "For if he [Michael Servetus] came, as far as my authority goes, I would not let him leave alive." (注意:這正是關於加爾文極力要殺害塞爾維特的直接證據,也是那位基督徒極力要否認的。)

19. (page 189) Thursday, June 23, 1547 - Several women tried for having danced, this time including Ami Perrin.

20. (page 192) September 23, 1547 - Francois Favre was prosecuted for having said that Calvin had proclaimed himself bishop of Geneva. Favre, Perrin, and his wife were again imprisoned.

21. (page 184) September 27, 1548 - CALVIN REPORTS his brother's wife to the consistory on suspicion of adultery.

22. (page 184) October 16-18, 1548 - Anne, CALVIN'S SISTER-IN-LAW is freed and had to kneel and ask forgiveness from both her husband and CALVIN (for apparently damaging his reputation.)

23. (page 210) October, 1551 - Hierome Bolsec imprisoned for his opposition to predestination. There he was immediately interrogated.

24. (page 211) December 23, 1551 - Bolsec sentenced to banishment on penalty of public whipping if he returned.

25. (page 223) Spring, 1553 - Proofs against the heretic Michael Servetus were gathered in Geneva in CALVIN'S ENTOURAGE.

26. (page 223) April, 1553 - Catholics were provided the evidence. Servetus is interrogated but escapes.

27. (page 223) August 13, 1553 - Servetus arrives in Geneva and is arrested and imprisoned.

28. (page 223) September 15, 1553 - From prison, Servetus writes a letter to the Council complaining that Calvin was deliberately prolonging his stay in the worst prison conditions. He complains of being eaten alive by insects and having no suitable clean or mended clothes to wear. The official charges, 1) denial of the Trinity 2) rejection of infant baptism.

29. (page 223) October 27, 1553 - After refusing to confess, Servetus is burned alive at the stake. Calvin apparently tried to change the manner of death to something other than burning at the stake, but he was unsuccessful.

30. (page 198) February, 1555 - Elections favorable to Calvin.

31. (page 198) May 16, 1555 - A riot ensues after the elections. Perrin (a leader of the opposing faction) seized the baton, which symbolized the office of Syndic giving the appearance of a coup d'etat. Perrin flees along with his associate Philibert Berthelier.

32. (page 198) After May 16, 1555 - CALVIN CALLS for repression.

33. (page 198) Monday, June 3, 1555 - The guilty are judged in absentia. Perrin is condemned to have the hand of his right arm cut off (the hand with which he grabbed the baton.) He and his accomplices were condemned to decapitation, then the heads and Perrin's hand were to be nailed up in public and their bodies cut into four quarters. The brothers Comparet received the sentence of decapitation and their bodies are to be quartered. All who didn't flee were executed. Two other men, Claude Galloys and Girard Thomas were put in a sort of pillory in two different parts of town. Galloys also received the sentence of having to carry a torch and ask for mercy. Berthelier's brother Francois-Daniel is among the victims of the repression. CALVIN JUSTIFIES the severity of their sentences.


34. (page 253) March, 1556 - Those who broke measures barring the mixing of men and women were subjected to public humiliation in the collar (a sort of pillary).

35. (page 253) December 31, 1556 - Jacques Lampereur was imprisoned for having made strong statements against the edicts last proposed on fornications, saying that we are under the law of grace and that is would be judaizing to condemn adulterers to death.

36. (page 184) January, 1557 - CALVIN'S SISTER-IN-LAW was imprisoned again for having committed adultery.

37. (page 180-181) October, 1568 - A pair of men were executed for sorcery after CALVIN EXHORTED his contemporaries to pursue sorcerers in order to remove all of them from the earth.

38. (page 181) 1568 - Another sorcerer admits his guilt under the torture of having his feet burned. He later recants his admission and is banished forever from Geneva.

From this survey of the life of John Calvin, we find that 38 people were executed during his time in Geneva. Some were burned alive. Others were decapitated and quartered afterward. Most were tortured first. Many more were imprisoned and tortured. The great majority of these people were accused of sorcery for spreading the Plague. For at least two men, the crime was little more than a public denunciation of Calvin himself. And in cases such a Michael Servetus, Calvin's premeditated determination to kill was made readily apparent by a letter written six years before Servetus had ever been brought to trial.

估計那位基督徒說加爾文沒有殺人的理由就是加爾文沒有親自點火、沒有親自操刀。按這位的殺人定義來看,希特勒也沒殺人,許多納粹日本戰犯都沒有殺人。

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yunsousifang 發表於 2009-1-29 20:08 | 只看該作者
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大寫的蚊子 發表於 2009-1-29 22:18 | 只看該作者

回復 樓主 在美一方 的帖子

呵呵!這位基督徒同學是本壇張嘴就來的典範
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Servant 發表於 2009-1-29 22:28 | 只看該作者

回復 樓主 在美一方 的帖子

阿美,任何一個基督徒,在行為上,與非基督徒,都是五十步與一百步的區別,甚至,某些基督徒,在行為上,比某些非基督徒還差,這個,是必然的。

這,就是我常說的,基督徒,也是罪人,基督徒是「蒙恩」的罪人,他們的罪,被「赦免」了。。。但是,他們仍然犯罪,仍然無法達到神的聖潔的標準。

如果在這個問題上,有了充分的認識,就不會去看基督徒的毛病了。

沒有一個基督徒,沒有毛病。
沒有一個人,沒有毛病。

這個世上,只有一個人,沒有毛病,那就是耶穌基督。
所以,聖經教導我們,要定睛與神,不要看人。看人,我們一定跌倒。

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大寫的蚊子 發表於 2009-1-29 22:35 | 只看該作者
原帖由 Servant 於 2009-1-29 22:28 發表 [加爾文沒有殺人嗎?看看加爾文傳記里怎麼記載的 - 信仰天地 -  backchina.com]  
這個世上,只有一個人,沒有毛病,那就是耶穌基督。
所以,聖經教導我們,要定睛與神,不要看人。看人,我們一定跌倒。

耶酥到底是人還是神啊?
【贈葯山高僧惟儼二首】   李翱   練得身形似鶴形,千株松下兩函經.   我來問道無餘說,雲在青霄水在瓶.   選得幽居愜野情,終年無送亦無迎.   有時直上孤峰頂,月下披雲嘯一聲.
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我的果園 發表於 2009-1-29 22:56 | 只看該作者

回復 6樓 Servant 的帖子

基督徒既然不比飛機好,那你們宣傳什麼基督教有利社會進步,道德進步?
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Servant 發表於 2009-1-29 23:09 | 只看該作者
原帖由 大寫的蚊子 於 2009-1-29 22:35 發表 [加爾文沒有殺人嗎?看看加爾文傳記里怎麼記載的 - 信仰天地 -  backchina.com]  

耶酥到底是人還是神啊?


耶穌是完全的人,也是完全的神。
詳細的請看,

為什麽信耶穌就能夠得永生呢--(三)因為耶穌是完全的神,也是完全的人
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Servant 發表於 2009-1-29 23:11 | 只看該作者
原帖由 我的果園 於 2009-1-29 22:56 發表 [加爾文沒有殺人嗎?看看加爾文傳記里怎麼記載的 - 信仰天地 -  backchina.com]  
基督徒既然不比飛機好,那你們宣傳什麼基督教有利社會進步,道德進步?


好像,基督教/聖經,從來沒有宣傳/說,信耶穌,是有利於社會進步,道德進步。

聖經明確告訴我們,信耶穌,是因為人的罪性;
信耶穌的目的,是我們靈魂的歸屬,可以免下地獄。

有時間,敬請讀讀有關為什麽信耶穌的系列,你會對基督教有不同的了解。
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sousuo 發表於 2009-1-29 23:24 | 只看該作者
好像,基督教/聖經,從來沒有宣傳/說,信耶穌,是有利於社會進步,道德進步。
床前明月光
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Servant 發表於 2009-1-29 23:29 | 只看該作者

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大象無形 發表於 2009-1-30 00:15 | 只看該作者
難道不是加爾文幫助上帝剪除野草?
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 樓主| 在美一方 發表於 2009-1-30 06:09 | 只看該作者
原帖由 Servant 於 2009-1-29 22:28 發表 [加爾文沒有殺人嗎?看看加爾文傳記里怎麼記載的 - 信仰天地 -  backchina.com]  
阿美,任何一個基督徒,在行為上,與非基督徒,都是五十步與一百步的區別,甚至,某些基督徒,在行為上,比某些非基督徒還差,這個,是必然的。

這,就是我常說的,基督徒,也是罪人,基督徒是「蒙恩」的罪人,他 ...


我是在指出你們某個姐妹的信口開河,同時澄清「加爾文沒有殺人」的謊言,我可沒興趣證明基督徒是不是好人壞人。
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嘁哩喀喳 發表於 2009-1-30 06:34 | 只看該作者
這個「同往錫安」深得耶穌真傳,張著大嘴巴胡吹的本事使相當高強的。這樣的例子還很多。
1)我不能確定有沒有「神」,但是我100%肯定:假如有神,這個神也絕對不會是基督教的那個令人噁心的「神」耶和華/耶穌。
2)基督教的「愛人如己」其實就是X子的貞節牌坊。詳細論證請參見我的博客。
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 樓主| 在美一方 發表於 2009-1-30 06:41 | 只看該作者

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是嗎?我倒不知道。她說一個我就還當真了。如果她向來是沒有依據張嘴就說的,那我就沒必要當真了。
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金寶 發表於 2009-1-30 07:13 | 只看該作者

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老爺們兒又來沖JJMM們吹鬍子瞪眼兒,沒出息。
說起張著大嘴胡吹,誰也比不了你老七呀。

以武會友 交結天下豪傑
板斧如風 專砍流氓阿飛
        邪不壓正!

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嘁哩喀喳 發表於 2009-1-30 07:15 | 只看該作者
原帖由 在美一方 於 2009-1-30 06:41 發表 [加爾文沒有殺人嗎?看看加爾文傳記里怎麼記載的 - 信仰天地 -  backchina.com]  
是嗎?我倒不知道。她說一個我就還當真了。如果她向來是沒有依據張嘴就說的,那我就沒必要當真了。


基們張著大嘴巴胡吹,揭穿他們還是有必要的。
1)我不能確定有沒有「神」,但是我100%肯定:假如有神,這個神也絕對不會是基督教的那個令人噁心的「神」耶和華/耶穌。
2)基督教的「愛人如己」其實就是X子的貞節牌坊。詳細論證請參見我的博客。
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618o382 發表於 2009-1-30 10:14 | 只看該作者
如果事實和必補漏bible不符,那事實一定錯了,必補漏bible一定對了。

同樣,如果事實和基督徒的言論不符,那事實一定錯了,基督徒一定對了。
耶穌說:至於我那些仇敵不要我作他們王的,把他拉來在我面前殺了吧!
盤古教聖人說:不要害怕我們死後的歸宿,我們只是回到了出生前的地方。
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無限還原 發表於 2009-1-30 10:33 | 只看該作者

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基督徒沒有思考,只有藉助聖經來思考。。
任何不符合聖經的事實,對基督徒而言是不符合邏輯而且是YY。。
如果3合1 是道路,一定是極端的斜路
如果3合1 是真理,殺人家孩子是光榮
如果3合1 是生命,侮辱給我們生命的父母
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 樓主| 在美一方 發表於 2009-1-30 23:09 | 只看該作者
原帖由 618o382 於 2009-1-30 10:14 發表 [加爾文沒有殺人嗎?看看加爾文傳記里怎麼記載的 - 信仰天地 -  backchina.com]  
如果事實和必補漏bible不符,那事實一定錯了,必補漏bible一定對了。

同樣,如果事實和基督徒的言論不符,那事實一定錯了,基督徒一定對了。


呵呵,就是啊。看看那些平常討論不出來一有吹拍基督徒的帖子就立刻出來嘰嘰歪歪的基督徒如獲至寶的醜態就明白了。
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 樓主| 在美一方 發表於 2009-1-31 00:30 | 只看該作者

回復 22樓 在美一方 的帖子

怎麼有人特別喜歡把我的話拿去定義自己呢?笑死了。有一次,我說了這麼一句「我們不搭理滿嘴噴糞的」,沒有指哪個具體ID是那個噴者,居然有人也跳出來自己就認了說自己就是那個噴的。

看看自己的貼子吧,一貼出來,我就預測了但凡有點水平和智力的基督徒都不知道如何搭理,也就是那些嘰嘰歪歪的不知所云的表現出如獲至寶的媚態。願意與這些惺惺相惜,也是人家自己的自由不是,誰cares?從一個怎麼著也算是能附庸風雅的落到這步田地,唉,基督教害人的又一個活例而已。

[ 本帖最後由 在美一方 於 2009-1-31 00:32 編輯 ]
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