倍可親

標題: 宗教崇拜，真的僅僅是人類才有的精神現象嗎？ [列印本頁]

作者: confuse 時間: 2008-6-6 04:01
標題: 宗教崇拜，真的僅僅是人類才有的精神現象嗎？
宗教崇拜，真的僅僅是人類才有的精神現象嗎？－－by ICLL

曾有教徒說，人類很特殊啊，你看，動物都只有條件反射，基本的覓食行為，而人類居然有迷信，有宗教，可見人類和動物不同，人類有靈魂！所以，人類是被造的。云云。

但事實真的是這樣嗎？我這裡講一個 1947 年的動物實驗。

實驗者是著名的心理學家SKINNER，這個實驗是這樣的：

將一隻鴿子餓那麼幾天，然後放進一個籠子里。籠子外面，有一根喂飼料的管子，管子伸進籠子后，鴿子可以吃到食物。

現在，飼料管每隔固定的時間，就伸進籠子一次。無論鴿子做什麼，如何反應，飼料管都按固定的時間伸入籠子。這個意思是說，飼料管的伸入，不應該強化任何鴿子自己的行為（與此相對的，條件反射實驗中，老鼠碰觸點，就給食物，食物的出現是和老鼠的固定行為相關的，該行為獲得強化）

大家猜猜會發生什麼？

一般地想，因為食物的出現是固定時間的，不會強化鴿子的任何行為，鴿子就該耐心地等食物就完了唄。

但實驗結果也許大家都想不到 —— 鴿子自己發展出了一套自己的迷信體系！

在八次實驗中，有六次鴿子自己發展出了一套膜拜行為，有的是轉圈圈，有的是點頭，有的是發抖。飼料管離開籠子后，鴿子一開始會找一下，找不到了，就開始這樣的膜拜行為，直到飼料管再次出現。

換句話說，鴿子自己發展出了一個新的條件反射！它認為自己的這套行為，可以導致飼料管再次出現。在條件反射實驗里，食物出現是和動物行為直接相關的，強化動物某種特定的行為很好理解。但在這個操作反射實驗中，食物出現和動物行為完全沒有關係，卻仍然很好地發展強化了一套動物的行為。

SKINNER 稱之為「鴿子的迷信」。

呵呵，再來看我們人類呢？看看那些基督教徒們吧。走運的事情，和不走運的事情的出現，是有固定概率的，根本不以他們的禱告行為而改變。但他們仍然發展出一套很好的反射體系——好事情降臨了，那是我禱告成功了，壞事情降臨了，和禱告無關，肯定是上帝在懲罰或提醒我了。

和那些迷信的鴿子們一對照，呵呵，人類的行為是多麼具有動物性啊。

我總想，若教會了鴿子統計分析（我認為這個可能性不大，呵呵），那六隻鴿子里，有多少會明白食物出現和自己的古怪行為無關呢？那麼，如果教育基督徒都學會使用統計學工具，又有多少能明白所謂的禱告神跡，和基督徒的禱告沒有關係呢？

呵呵，前者我不敢肯定，但後者我倒有些把握，那些基督徒死也不敢用統計工具來了解事實真相，因為他們說：

我怎麼能試探我的神啊！

呵呵，人的迷信，和鴿子，有多大的區別呢？

作者: hellman 時間: 2008-6-6 04:14

作者: bmzw 時間: 2008-6-6 04:15
寫的好。

作者: sousuo 時間: 2008-6-6 04:19
寫的是挺好，就是忘了我們的古語，「子非魚。。。」

這時就不提中國文化了。

作者: bmzw 時間: 2008-6-6 04:48

原帖由 sousuo 於 2008-6-6 04:19 發表
寫的是挺好，就是忘了我們的古語，「子非魚。。。」

這時就不提中國文化了。

是不是任何問題都要提中國文化？

作者: 力克思 時間: 2008-6-6 06:22
標題: Power of prayer flunks an unusual test

原帖由 confuse 於 2008-6-6 04:01 發表
宗教崇拜，真的僅僅是人類才有的精神現象嗎？－－by ICLL

那些基督徒死也不敢用統計工具來了解事實真相，因為他們說：我怎麼能試探我的神啊！

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681

NEW YORK - In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

在同類最大的研究中，研究員發現為心血管搭橋手術病人祈禱對他們沒有恢復健康作用。實際上，病人如果知道有人為他們祈禱，他們的發症會高一點。

(嘻嘻，試探神？讓你受苦多一點。)

作者: buffer 時間: 2008-6-6 06:36
標題: 回復 #6 力克思的帖子
神並不缺少什麼 —— 為什麼我要事奉？
神並不受人指示 —— 為什麼我要祈禱？

這兩個入門問題都沒搞清，就來反，也忒心急了點兒。

兩件事看起來都是我要影響神，可實際上的意義呢，是神要改變我。

-

作者: chico 時間: 2008-6-6 06:41
標題: 回復 #7 buffer 的帖子
有沒有可能介紹一下神是如何改變你的。

作者: 在美一方 時間: 2008-6-6 08:38
'SUPERSTITION' IN THE PIGEON

B. F. Skinner
Indiana University

Journal of Experimental Psychology, 38, 168-172.

To say that a reinforcement is contingent upon a response may mean nothing more than that it follows the response. It may follow because of some mechanical connection or because of the mediation of another organism; but conditioning takes place presumably because of the temporal relation only, expressed in terms of the order and proximity of response and reinforcement. Whenever we present a state of affairs which is known to be reinforcing at a given drive, we must suppose that conditioning takes place, even though we have paid no attention to the behavior of the organism in making the presentation. A simple experiment demonstrates this to be the case.

A pigeon is brought to a stable state of hunger by reducing it to 75 percent of its weight when well fed. It is put into an experimental cage for a few minutes each day. A food hopper attached to the cage may be swung into place so that the pigeon can eat from it. A solenoid and a timing relay hold the hopper in place for five sec. at each reinforcement.

If a clock is now arranged to present the food hopper at regular intervals with no reference whatsoever to the bird's behavior, operant conditioning usually takes place. In six out of eight cases the resulting responses were so clearly defined that two observers could agree perfectly in counting instances. One bird was conditioned to turn counter-clockwise about the cage, making two or three turns between reinforcements. Another repeatedly thrust its head into one of the upper corners of the cage. A third developed a 'tossing' response, as if placing its head beneath an invisible bar and lifting it repeatedly. Two birds developed a pendulum motion of the head and body, in which the head was extended forward and swung from right to left with a sharp movement followed by a somewhat slower return. The body generally followed the movement and a few steps might be taken when it was extensive. Another bird was conditioned to make incomplete pecking or brushing movements directed toward but not touching the floor. None of these responses appeared in any noticeable strength during adaptation to the cage or until the food hopper was periodically presented.  In the remaining two cases, conditioned responses were not clearly marked.

The conditioning process is usually obvious. The bird happens to be executing some response as the hopper appears; as a result it tends to repeat this response. If the interval before the next presentation is not so great that extinction takes place, a second 'contingency' is probable. This strengthens the response still further and subsequent reinforcement becomes more probable. It is true that some responses go unreinforced and [p. 169] some reinforcements appear when the response has not just been made, but the net result is the development of a considerable state of strength.

With the exception of the counter-clockwise turn, each response was almost always repeated in the same part of the cage, and it generally involved an orientation toward some feature of the cage. The effect of the reinforcement was to condition the bird to respond to some aspect of the environment rather than merely to execute a series of movements. All responses came to be repeated rapidly between reinforcements -- typically five or six times in 15 sec.

The effect appears to depend upon the rate of reinforcement. In general, we should expect that the shorter the intervening interval, the speedier and more marked the conditioning. One reason is that the pigeon's behavior becomes more diverse as time passes after reinforcement. A hundred photographs, each taken two sec. after withdrawal of the hopper, would show fairly uniform behavior. The bird would be in the same part of the cage, near the hopper, and probably oriented toward the wall where the hopper has disappeared or turning to one side or the other. A hundred photographs taken after 10 sec., on the other hand, would find the bird in various parts of the cage responding to many different aspects of the environment. The sooner a second reinforcement appears, therefore, the more likely it is that the second reinforced response will be similar to the first, and also that they will both have one of a few standard forms. In the limiting case of a very brief interval the behavior to be expected would be holding the head toward the opening through which the magazine has disappeared.

Another reason for the greater effectiveness of short intervals is that the longer the interval, the greater the number of intervening responses emitted without reinforcement. The resulting extinction cancels the effect of an occasional reinforcement.

According to this interpretation the effective interval will depend upon the rate of conditioning and the rate of extinction, and will therefore vary with the drive and also presumably between species. Fifteen sec. is a very effective interval at the drive level indicated above. One min. is much less so. When a response has once been set up, however, the interval can be lengthened. In one case it was extended to two min., and a high rate of responding was maintained with no sign of weakening. In another case, many hours of responding were observed with an interval of one min. between reinforcements.

In the latter case, the response showed a noticeable drift in topography. It began as a sharp movement of the head from the middle position to the left. This movement became more energetic, and eventually the whole body of the bird turned in the same direction, and a step or two would be taken. After many hours, the stepping response became the predominant feature. The bird made a well defined hopping step from the right to the left foot, meanwhile turning its head and body to the left as before.

When the stepping response became strong, it was possible to obtain a mechanical record by putting the bird on a large tambour directly connected with a small tambour which made a delicate electric contact each time [p. 170] stepping took place. By watching the bird and listening to the sound of the recorder it was possible to confirm the fact that a fairly authentic record was being made. It was possible for the bird to hear the recorder at each step, but this was, of course, in no way correlated with feeding. The record obtained when the magazine was presented once every min. resembles in every respect the characteristic curve for the pigeon under periodic reinforcement of a standard selected response. A well marked temporal discrimination develops. The bird does not respond immediately after eating, but when 10 or 15 or even 20 sec. have elapsed it begins to respond rapidly and continues until the reinforcement is received.

In this case it was possible to record the 'extinction' of the response when the clock was turned off and the magazine was no longer presented at any time. The bird continued to respond with its characteristic side to side hop. More than l0,000 responses were recorded before 'extinction' had reached the point at which few if any responses were made during a 10 or 15 min interval. When the clock was again started, the periodic presentation of the magazine (still without any connection whatsoever with the bird's behavior) brought out a typical curve for reconditioning after periodic reinforcement, shown in Fig. 1. The record had been essentially horizontal for 20 min. prior to the beginning of this curve. The first reinforcement had some slight effect and the second a greater effect. There is a smooth positive acceleration in rate as the bird returns to the rate of responding which prevailed when it was reinforced every min.

When the response was again extinguished and the periodic presentation of food then resumed, a different response was picked up. This consisted of a progressive walking response in which the bird moved about the cage. [p. 171] The response of hopping from side to side never reappeared and could not, of course, be obtained deliberately without making the reinforcement contingent upon the behavior.

The experiment might be said to demonstrate a sort of superstition. The bird behaves as if there were a causal relation between its behavior and the presentation of food, although such a relation is lacking. There are many analogies in human behavior.  Rituals for changing one's luck at cards are good examples. A few accidental connections between a ritual and favorable consequences suffice to set up and maintain the behavior in spite of many unreinforced instances. The bowler who has released a ball down the alley but continues to behave as if he were controlling it by twisting and turning his arm and shoulder is another case in point. These behaviors have, of course, no real effect upon one's luck or upon a ball half way down an alley, just as in the present case the food would appear as often if the pigeon did nothing -- or, more strictly speaking, did something else.

It is perhaps not quite correct to say that conditioned behavior has been set up without any previously determined contingency whatsoever. We have appealed to a uniform sequence of responses in the behavior of the pigeon to obtain an over-all net contingency. When we arrange a clock to present food every 15 sec., we are in effect basing our reinforcement upon a limited set of responses which frequently occur 15 sec. after reinforcement. When a response has been strengthened (and this may result from one reinforcement), the setting of the clock implies an even more restricted contingency. Something of the same sort is true of the bowler. It is not quite correct to say that there is no connection between his twisting and turning and the course taken by the ball at the far end of the alley. The connection was established before the ball left the bowler's hand, but since both the path of the ball and the behavior of the bowler are determined, some relation survives. The subsequent behavior of the bowler may have no effect upon the ball, but the behavior of the ball has an effect upon the bowler. The contingency, though not perfect, is enough to maintain the behavior in strength. The particular form of the behavior adopted by the bowler is due to induction from responses in which there is actual contact with the ball. It is clearly a movement appropriate to changing the ball's direction. But this does not invalidate the comparison, since we are not concerned with what response is selected but with why it persists in strength. In rituals for changing luck the inductive strengthening of a particular form of behavior is generally absent.  The behavior of the pigeon in this experiment is of the latter sort, as the variety of responses obtained from different pigeons indicates. Whether there is any unconditioned [p. 172] behavior in the pigeon appropriate to a given effect upon the environment is under investigation.

The results throws some light on incidental behavior observed in experiments in which a discriminative stimulus is frequently presented. Such a stimulus has reinforcing value and can set up superstitious behavior. A pigeon will often develop some response such as turning, twisting, pecking near the locus of the discriminative stimulus, flapping its wings, etc. In much of the work to date in this field the interval between presentations of the discriminative stimulus has been one min. and many of these superstitious responses are short-lived. Their appearance as the result of accidental correlations with the presentation of the stimulus is unmistakable.

(Manuscript received June 5, 1947)

作者: 子竹青青 時間: 2008-6-6 08:45
這真是個超級大俠啊.

為什麼他和老鄉都不在呢.

作者: confuse 時間: 2008-6-6 08:51
標題: 回復 #10 子竹青青的帖子
老鄉不知道，ICLL在WXC那兒忙著呢。他有不少好貼，有工夫權轉過來。

作者: 子竹青青 時間: 2008-6-6 08:54
標題: 回復 #11 confuse 的帖子
他太入木三分了.

作者: 在美一方 時間: 2008-6-6 09:09

原帖由 子竹青青 於 2008-6-5 18:45 發表
這真是個超級大俠啊.

為什麼他和老鄉都不在呢.

老鄉在呢，就是不說話，說他太忙呢

作者: 子竹青青 時間: 2008-6-6 09:12
標題: 回復 #13 在美一方的帖子
俺想看老鄉和ICLL一起發言

作者: 在美一方 時間: 2008-6-6 09:28

原帖由 子竹青青 於 2008-6-5 19:12 發表
俺想看老鄉和ICLL一起發言

等他不忙了唄，糊口第一重要

作者: 子竹青青 時間: 2008-6-6 09:55
標題: 回復 #15 在美一方的帖子

作者: sousuo 時間: 2008-6-6 10:19
標題: 回復 #16 子竹青青的帖子
I 兄在那邊現在算是「復出」，早先他的貼子多的很，一搜就出來了。

作者: 子竹青青 時間: 2008-6-6 10:28
標題: 回復 #17 sousuo 的帖子
還是現場直播更有看頭。

作者: confuse 時間: 2008-6-6 11:39
標題: 回復 #18 子竹青青的帖子
你想看直播嗎？我給你弄點兒來？

作者: 子竹青青 時間: 2008-6-6 11:57
標題: 回復 #19 confuse 的帖子

作者: coolermaster 時間: 2008-6-6 20:16
標題: 回復 #14 子竹青青的帖子回復 #15 在美一方的帖子
偶想看 I 兄和鄉兄打一架

作者: 在美一方 時間: 2008-6-6 20:20

原帖由 coolermaster 於 2008-6-6 06:16 發表
偶想看 I 兄和鄉兄打一架

作者: coolermaster 時間: 2008-6-6 20:35
標題: 回復 #22 在美一方的帖子
真暴力

偶是說，讓 I 兄和鄉兄一正一反辨一下基督教教義而己

砸回你

作者: 在美一方 時間: 2008-6-6 21:05
標題: 回復 #23 coolermaster 的帖子
你笨啊，他們兩個才打不起來呢

作者: coolermaster 時間: 2008-6-6 21:14
標題: 回復 #24 在美一方的帖子
你大學時沒參加過辯論會嗎？
一正一反可好玩呢！
尤其是抽到自己反對的觀點的一方，還要為這觀點搜集資料、闡釋、辯護、反駁

但也真能培養分辨能力呢

作者: 在美一方 時間: 2008-6-6 21:25
標題: 回復 #25 coolermaster
沒有

作者: sumw 時間: 2008-6-6 21:31

原帖由 buffer 於 2008-6-6 06:36 發表
神並不缺少什麼 —— 為什麼我要事奉？
神並不受人指示 —— 為什麼我要祈禱？

這兩個入門問題都沒搞清，就來反，也忒心急了點兒。

兩件事看起來都是我要影響神，可實際上的意義呢，是神要改變我。-

基督教信奉的神是不是真的宇宙至高主宰 !?

是誰犮現, 證實的?

作者: coolermaster 時間: 2008-6-6 21:31
標題: 回復 #26 在美一方的帖子
那讓他們倆來一場

偶們在旁邊煽風點火，然後從中偷師

作者: 在美一方 時間: 2008-6-6 22:25
標題: 回復 #28 coolermaster
好！

那你去點火，我去找鐵扇公主借扇子去！

作者: paullian 時間: 2008-6-6 22:27

原帖由 在美一方 於 2008-6-6 10:25 PM 發表
好！那你去點火，我去找鐵扇公主借扇子去！

世紀大戰阿？我替鄉下惋惜一下下。。他怎麼惹上了咱們在美J

作者: coolermaster 時間: 2008-6-6 22:27

原帖由 在美一方 於 2008-6-6 22:25 發表
好！那你去點火，我去找鐵扇公主借扇子去！

公主在那？

歡迎光臨倍可親 (https://big5.backchina.com/)