越洋訪談(四):美國前高官顧問談民主運動實質
丹奇(2012年6月5日)
繼上篇 越洋訪談(三)
前言,本訪談開啟於有關中國64運動,而延伸到民主運動實質。令人頗受啟發。特分段分享於此。
me: do you think there are anti china
powers behind the student movement? many
people even governemnt think CIA and some anti China power is behind student
and misled student too, do you agree?
我: 你認為學生運動後面反華組織在支持嗎? 許多人包括中國政府認為美國中央情報局和一些反華勢力在後面支持學生,你同意這個說法嗎?
David: not really, no, i
don't think so, in 1989 china was growing, but
still a true 3rd world country
大衛: 不應該吧,不,我不這麼認為。1989年中國雖然在成長,但是仍然是第三世界國家。
me:
do you know anything about NED? National Endowment for Democracy, funded by Congress , paying people to promote Democray in China? many reported those student leaders fled under help of
those organizations,what do you think?
我: 你知道NED嗎?國家民主基金,是國會撥款的。給錢中國人在中國推進民主嗎?許多報道說那些學生領袖是在這些組織幫助下逃亡美國的。
David: yes, heard of that.
that wouldn't be unusual, but, you have to find willing "actors" but
many people may truly want democracy.
大衛:聽說過。這很正常啊。但,你還得找到願意表演的演員才是啊。也許很多人真的想要民主呢。
me: why they do that? that's why all leaders not wounded, no
died, all came to USA , but left those anarmed, unhelped in danger and loss of
life
我:他們為啥要這麼做呢?難道這就是為什麼所有的領袖都沒受傷,沒死,全都來了美國,但是留下那些手無寸鐵的,無助的學生在危險中,甚至失去生命的原因?
David: people,
for over 2000 years love the idea of democracy, from Greece, to Rome, to
Europe, to the USA, choose your
leaders, who represent you: if they don't do good job get rid of them, all big powers stir the soup bowl of
their opponents
大衛: 人民,兩千多年來,都喜歡民主的思想。從希臘,到羅馬,到歐洲,到美國,選擇你的領袖,代表你的,如果做得不好,就趕下台。所有的超級大國都去他們的對手那兒攪局。
me:
: But don』t you think they should not interfere other country? by
stirring the pot? just like your family
set a fund for the kids in the street to take down their parents because they
don't send boys to scouts, should
you do
that?
我: 你不認為他們不應該這樣攪局, 他們是干涉別國事務嗎?就比如說你家為街上的孩子成立一個基金,你付錢給他們去推翻自己的家長,因為家長不准許他們加入童子軍。你認為你可以這麼做嗎?
David: it's not
quite the same,,,but i see your point. the
other parents don't have nuclear weapons, lol
大衛:不是一回事,但是,我明白你要說什麼。但是其他家長手裡沒有核武器啊。(大笑)
me:
so do you think it's just a play of the
organization actually stirred up the pot too hard and turned into a tragedy ?
我: 你認為是那些組織實際上攪局過頭了造成了悲劇?
David: yes,
keep the other side "off balance", we
do it, china do it, russia do it, the euro powers do it, the middle east arabs do it to each other, it's
been done for thousands of years,,,this is not new
大衛: 是滴。讓另一方失去平衡。我們這麼干,中國這麼干,俄羅斯這麼干,歐洲這麼干,中東互相這麼干。大夥這麼干都上千年了。這並不新鮮。
me: It seems China not like to stir other's pot and poke into neighbours
yard, just self defensive。
我:中國好像不太喜歡去別人家裡攪局,而只是偶爾自衛吧。
David: you not
pay enough attention.
大衛: 你沒有太注意。
me: to what?
我:注意什麼?
David: need to look at syria, palestine, africa, cuba,
venezuala,,, north korea, China very involved, as part of policy
大衛: 應該看看敘利亞,巴勒斯坦,非洲,古巴,委內瑞拉,北韓,涉入很深呢,這也是政策的一部分。
me:
what do you mean very involved, what policy?
我: 你指的涉入是什麼呢,什麼政策?
David: but
still, people die trying to get here,
rich people try to move their money here,,,,send their kids to school
here, it's their policy - look
at their "client" states, and look at ours,,,,china
"clients" are enemy of our "clients" ,we sell them weapons,,china sell their clients weapons。
大衛: 但是,人們拚死都要來美國,富人想方設法把錢轉移到美國來。送他們的孩子來這裡讀書。這就是他們的政策---看看他們的客戶國家。再看看我們的。中國的客戶國是我們客戶國的敵人。我們賣武器給他們,中國也賣武器給她的客戶們。
David: and then the clients "fight",,and then each side
can assess how their weapons work...we did the same with USSR for 50 years. we could always see how our new technology worked against
their new technology by starting little wars between the client states, so we could test planes, tanks, new
guns, new tech, they are called
"proxy wars"
大衛:然後,客戶之間進行戰鬥。然後,每一方都能評估他們的武器是如何工作的。我們和蘇聯這麼鬥了50年。我們經常在客戶國之間發動一場小小的戰爭,來檢查我們的新科技與他們的新科技之間如何對抗的,這樣,我們才能測試飛機,坦克,新型槍支,新技術,他們稱之為「代理戰爭」
me: oh my god . is that the purpose of
the war that kills people just for testing the technology?
我: 我的天,發動殺人的戰爭, 目的只是為了技術測試?
David: no, the purpose is the let others get killed,,,but we can
see how our technology is good, how can improve,,but not put our people at
risk,,, let clients states get
killed and kill each other
大衛:不,目的是讓其他人被殺。我們可以了解我們的技術多麼好,如何改進,而不是把我們的人民置於危險之中。而是讓客戶國之間互相殺戮。
me: so all
is for protecting its own people by put other country in danger?
我: 所以,為了保護你自己的國民而置其他國家於危險中?
David: LOL
LOL,,,USA do it, Russia do it, china do it, where
you think palestinians get guns ? where you think iran get missle tech ?and
planes ?and where you think north korea get
nuke tech ?
大衛: 大笑, 美國這麼做,俄羅斯這麼做,中國這麼做。你想象看巴勒斯坦從哪裡買槍支?伊朗從哪裡獲得導彈技術?飛機技術? 北韓從哪裡得到的核技術的?
me: from china?everybody want to show who is the leader?
我: 從中國?每個人都想當領袖?
David: Yes, from China.
And no,
not true. everybody want to be
leader in their group, then
you have true power, and if your
group can defeat other group,,,then you rule the world,
大衛: 是的,從中國。不,不是真的。每個人都想成為他們團體的領袖。這樣,你才會有真正的權力。如果你的團體打敗了另一個團體,你就統治世界了。
me: why you want the power for if not
bring peace to the world?
我: 如果你不能給世界帶來和平,要權力幹嗎?
David: to
preserve your own power at home,,,to be able to feed your people, to get energy
resources, not enough resources for the
entire population
大衛:用權力來保護你在家裡的權力,能夠餵飽你的人民,獲得能源,這麼多人口沒有足夠的能源。
me: so ruling the world is the goal?
我: 這麼說,統治世界是目標?
David: ruling the world only serves the goal to keep you in power
at home by keeping the citizens happy by feeding them, and keeping them , employeed, and warm in the winter
大衛:通過餵飽你的公民,給他們工作,讓他們冬天保暖,這樣才能讓你的公民過上幸福生活。你才能保有在家裡的權力,這才是你統治世界的目標,
me: Thank you David, It』s
getting very late there, I will let you go and sleep.
Thank you very much! will
intervew you next time, about
many stuff, is that ok?
我: 謝謝大衛,你那邊很晚了。先去睡覺吧。下次再採訪你。可以嗎?
David: No problem. You
are always welcome!
大衛: 沒問題,隨時歡迎!
後記: 本訪談內容純屬個人意見,不代表任何官方或民間意見。若有不同看法,請用英語提問或發表你的看法,我將轉給David 先生,並請他為各位有疑惑的朋友解答。謝謝)